Charlton Heston dead at age 84.

[keratosis]

Thought he was much older than that.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Properly used, guns are harmless tools, like knives and baseball bats.

Properly used, some guns can kill a bunch of people in a few seconds. That's what they were designed for.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I don't like this comparison. You can't smoke a cigarette for fun like you can shoot a gun for target practice. And whether you advocate "gun fun" or not is beside the point.

Cigarettes exist for recreational usage as much as guns do. People smoke cigarettes for enjoyment all the time. Some of them get addicted.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Properly used, some guns can kill a bunch of people in a few seconds. That's what they were designed for.

Thanks for the update. Hence the American 2nd amendment. This is not the point of dispute, but your input is appreciated.

Originally Posted by icarus

Cigarettes exist for recreational usage as much as guns do. People smoke cigarettes for enjoyment all the time. Some of them get addicted.

And your point is? People get addicted to shooting guns?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Thanks for the update. Hence the American 2nd amendment. This is not the point of dispute, but your input is appreciated.

The point of dispute is your suggestion that guns are harmless if used properly, which is pretty obviously not true.

[Johnny 99]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Thanks for the update. Hence the American 2nd amendment. This is not the point of dispute, but your input is appreciated.



And your point is? People get addicted to shooting guns?

You really need to wikipedia the second amendment my man.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The point of dispute is your suggestion that guns are harmless if used properly, which is pretty obviously not true.

Classic Rouge. I clearly meant that cigarettes are always killers and that guns are not. I now find myself 'defending' guns when I'm only half on board. I suppose that what I'm really arguing against is the idea that Heston is responsible for the abuse of guns in America. If you want to go about your usual schtick and pounce on a post that may have been worded carelessly, have fun. It's getting old, but there's always room for you around here, like hookers and blow.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Johnny 99

You really need to wikipedia the second amendment my man.

Done. And?

Correct my misguided interpretation, but I'm reading that every American is entitled to the right to bear arms (a gun, if they so choose).

As far as I can recall, we were debating whether Heston and guns are the root of evil in America. My reference to the 2nd amendment was in response to Rouge's suggestion that I was overlooking the fact that guns were invented for and continue to be used to kill people.
Is my logic lost here? I don't disagree that guns are the tool that kill people. I disagree that guns kill people and SPECIFICALLY that Heston is a bad guy that advocated gangsterism and child killing.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Classic Rouge. I clearly meant that cigarettes are always killers and that guns are not. I now find myself 'defending' guns when I'm only half on board. I suppose that what I'm really arguing against is the idea that Heston is responsible for the abuse of guns in America. If you want to go about your usual schtick and pounce on a post that may have been worded carelessly, have fun. It's getting old, but there's always room for you around here, like hookers and blow.

My usual schtick? Sheesh.

You said guns are harmless tools if used properly. How am I supposed to get "cigarettes are always killers" out of that?

I'm not the editor here.

Cigarettes are not always killers.

I don't think Heston is responsible for gun violence in America either.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by 4X4

The NRA preaches responsible gun ownership, not gangsterism.

The NRA preaches responsible gun ownership in exactly the same way Christianity preaches tolerance.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

My usual schtick? Sheesh.

Yep. Your usual schtick. Like Svend Robinson, you find useless things to yap about and pound your fists on the table.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

You said guns are harmless tools if used properly. How am I supposed to get "cigarettes are always killers" out of that?

I suppose my original post, the one you replied to, may have been a good source (quoted below).

Originally Posted by 4X4

Properly used, guns are harmless tools, like knives and baseball bats. Cigarettes kill every time. They're not the same thing. BTW, go right ahead and hack my hamburger comparison.

You're really just (excuse the pun) shooting the messenger. Dissing Heston and/or the NRA is like blaming NASCAR for car accidents. Or alcohol and liquor stores for drunken a-holes.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not the editor here.

Cigarettes are not always killers.

I don't think Heston is responsible for gun violence in America either.

These other statements are neutral. You're not the editor, some people smoke their brains out (me) and Heston is not responsible for gun violence in America. Glad we agree somewhat.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by driveway

The NRA preaches responsible gun ownership in exactly the same way Christianity preaches tolerance.

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I am not immune. Nor are you.

[HOZ]

[quote=Buzzard;1267100]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Congratulations in buying into Moore's BS. Embarrassing! [/quote

Wasn't exactly buying into it..more like questioning it.

Sorry, my bad.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Yep. Your usual schtick. Like Svend Robinson, you find useless things to yap about and pound your fists on the table.

I don't disagree that everything I yap about in here is useless. That's what makes it so much fun. I don't think it's fair of you to grouse about my inability to properly decipher the true meaning of your posts that might have been "worded carelessly", as you put it.

Back to the "guns are tools like knives and baseball bats" I don't know about that logic. Sure I can stab a person with a knife or clobber someone with a baseball bat. I can also run over someone in my car, strangle a guy with the chord on my headphones or bash my wife over the head with my lamp that looks like an Irish Wolfhound. I can string my neighbour up in the garage with my garden hose, shoot my cousin in the face with my handgun and beat my roommate into a coma with a cutting board.

My car, my headphones, my cutting board, my steak knife, my hose, my handgun, my cutting board, my lamp...

One of these things is not like the other. Which one?

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't disagree that everything I yap about in here is useless. That's what makes it so much fun. I don't think it's fair of you to grouse about my inability to properly decipher the true meaning of your posts that might have been "worded carelessly", as you put it.

Back to the "guns are tools like knives and baseball bats" I don't know about that logic. Sure I can stab a person with a knife or clobber someone with a baseball bat. I can also run over someone in my car, strangle a guy with the chord on my headphones or bash my wife over the head with my lamp that looks like an Irish Wolfhound. I can string my neighbour up in the garage with my garden hose, shoot my cousin in the face with my handgun and beat my roommate into a coma with a cutting board.

My car, my headphones, my cutting board, my steak knife, my hose, my handgun, my cutting board, my lamp...

One of these things is not like the other. Which one?

Content wise, agreed and undisputed. But FTR, I disagree that there is an 'h' in cord. Check your pm inbox.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by 4X4

And your point is? People get addicted to shooting guns?

The point is to refute your point that cigarettes always kill and guns sometimes kill. My point is that both can be harmless, but generally neither are particularly great for society because both end up killing a lot of people regardless. I think the analogy made by Johnny99 is apt, or at least not invalidated by your rebuttal.

[4X4]

Ok, playing along, when do cigarettes not kill? Besides when they're not smoked.


Wait.... I get it...

[transplant99]

And who has done more than anyone else to ensure that handguns are readily available with less and less restrictions? Charles Heston and the NRA.

The US constitution along with the Supreme court maybe?

As for the whole Denver/Colombine thing.....again the conference (where elections and bylaws were to be discussed and voted on BTW) had been scheduled for well over a year.

When the shootings occurred it was far to late to change the location but the NRA did take down all advertisements in the city, cancelled the gun show and made the whole ordeal a one day thing rather than the usual 3 days. In other words they did all they could to lower their profile. I understand it made no difference to a community in mourning, but that was all that was available.

I hate guns myself, but the NRA is actually a body that promotes gun safety as well as the ability to own them. Yes they are a lobbyist group with deep pockets as well, but that is in response to seeing the Gov't wanting to take away what rights they, and the Supreme Court, have decided the 2nd amendment allows.

[worth]

Heston stood up for the second amendment rights of Americans as well as other civil liberties. Not sure how I or anyone else can disagree with him upholding ideals that are in the United States Constitution.

[Montana Moe]

Originally Posted by Johnny 99

...Nothing was ever mentioned about having fully automatic weapons in the hands of children.

This post baffles me. Where are you getting your information concerning the intentions of the NRA?

I'm not usually a "quoter," but this stuff you're coming up with is ridiculous and simply untrue.

Here's some info about the Eddie Eagle Gunsafe Program for educating children about the dangers of firearms. Terrible, damning propaganda indeed.
http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

As far as the "fully automatic" weapons you speak of, I'm unsure if you are misinformed about what exactly fully automatic weapons are (which is often the case), or if you are unaware of federal firearms laws banning all fully automatic weapons since 1934 unless you obtain a special permit from the Treasury Dept.

"Class III dealers may sell fully-automatic firearms manufactured prior to May 19, 1986, and other federally registered firearms and devices restricted under Title II of the Gun Control Act, to individuals who obtain approval from the U.S. Secretary of the Treasury after payment of a tax and clearance following a criminal background check.
Violations of restrictions on Title II firearms and devices are punishable by a penalty of up to $10,000 and 10 years imprisonment."

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Federal/Read.aspx?id=60

"The result of FDR`s campaign was the National Firearms Act of 1934, which to this day requires that before a private citizen may take possession of a fully-automatic firearm he must pay a $200 tax to the Internal Revenue Service and be approved by the Treasury Department to own the firearm, which is registered to the owner with the federal government."

http://www.nraila.org//Issues/FactSh...ad.aspx?ID=130

I'm not a member of the NRA. I'm just a gun owner that gets tired of the lies spread about firearms in America, and the negative light that responsible, law abiding firearm owners get from people with their own agenda.

Just checked again, I found nothing on the NRA website stating their intention to put fully automatic weapons in the hands of children. If you have some proof, please educate me.

Now, on topic. Heston was first and foremost, a principled man. We could use a few more like him these days.