Any lawyers on CP? can you tell me about the job market in Calgary? - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

blankall · 04-02-2008, 02:27 PM

I am just finishing up my third year at UBC. Considering going back to Calgary for articles. I'd obviously be lookign for smaller firms, since the big ones have all done hiring already. Can anyone give any advice?

Titan · 04-02-2008, 02:32 PM

I had great articles at the City. Don't know if they are still in the match or not but I know in the past they hired past the match. Check it out. www.calgary.ca.

troutman · 04-02-2008, 02:41 PM

I imagine the demand is still pretty hot for articled students in Calgary. IIRC, they are paid very well compared with most other cities in Canada. Downtown firms might be real sweat shops - I don't know for sure. You might get a more varied experience at a small or mid-sized firm.

fredr123 would have better info - he recently went through all this.

Our small firm is really not ready for expansion for another year or two.

PM me if you need more specific info - glad to help a fellow UBC grad.

killer_carlson · 04-02-2008, 08:07 PM

I think CP has one of the highest lawyer/poster ratios of any hockey website.

There are tonnes of us on here, but I won't out the rest of them.

My advice would be to try some of the surrounding communities like cochrane, okotoks, or Airdrie as well.

I'm in Edmonton so I can't comment on the Calgary marketplace specifically.

corporatejay · 04-02-2008, 08:13 PM

The Calgary Market is still pretty hot, all the big/mid size firms hired up during the match last june.

At UofA we still get smaller firms looking for people on our career board. A friend of mine just got an article about 6 weeks ago at a smaller firm and she had a few offers before that she turned down.

I may know of a few smaller suburban firms that are hiring, PM me and I can see if I can wrestle up some names for you.

Look forward to seeing you in CPLED

boobaloo · 04-02-2008, 08:13 PM

cue the lawyer jokes

fredr123 · 04-02-2008, 10:14 PM

1. Did you participate in the Match for Calgary? If not, the ship may have sailed on the bigger Calgary firms. That may or may not be a bad thing depending on how you want to start your career. Sounds like you're not interested in it anyway so no worries. You can always join Big Law later in your career.

2. CPLED is teh suck. They've actually changed the schedule since I went through it. I started in the summer right after Stampede and went steady until the week before Christmas. You were done and could totally imbibe in the Christmas cheer. Now, as I understand, they stretched it out over the Christmas break so you've always got that specter looming over your holiday. Aside from the schedule, it's a crummy way to prove your worth as a future lawyer. Just play the game and get it over with.

3. I articled at a firm with 15 lawyers. It's not big by Calgary standards but definitely not small. I had experience in just about every area of practice and was able to learn different things from most of the lawyers in our firm. The partners were big on working as a team but also gave me a lot of freedom to establish my own practice and run things the way I wanted to. It was great experience.

4. I got my article late in the game, literally almost a month or so before I started. I was always told, and so far this has proved to be true based on my friend's experiences, that you can always find an article in Calgary as long as you're patient. Figure out what you want and target some small/medium firms. I'm sure you can find something.

If you have any more specific questions, feel free to PM me.

fatso · 04-03-2008, 07:23 AM

I hope this isn't too far from the OP's thread intent, but there's some great insight here and I'd be curious to hear about the market for lawyers recently called in other provinces? What about people who have articled in another province, got called, and want to get to Calgary ASAP? What's the market like for those junior, beginning lawyers?

fredr123 · 04-03-2008, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fotze

Lawyers and engineers seem to populate alot of this board.

What exactly is "an article"?

It's like an apprenticeship for a would-be lawyer. There are different requirements for different provinces. In order to become a lawyer in Alberta you must:

1. Get a degree.
2. Get a law degree.
3. Article for 12 months.
4. Complete a course by the Canadian Centre for Legal Education (CPLED).
5. Get admitted to the Law Society of Alberta (bar call).

You can sometimes get away with not completing #1 if you can convince a law school to let you in. I've only met one guy who did that at the UofC. Your results may vary.

I always tell people articling is like being an apprentice (or a padawan if I'm talking to someone really nerdy). For 12 months you are a slave to your principal. He or she is responsible for ensuring you learn what it takes to be a lawyer. He or she is also responsible for making your life a living hell for the next year. Some principals and articles are better than others, no doubt.

There is no bar exam in Alberta anymore. For the last 4 years or so, Alberta (and some other provinces) use the CPLED program. It's basically distance education for lawyers. You go for 6 months or so doing assignments that range from essays and memos to actually drafting fake pleadings and submitting them online for grading by an anonymous unaccountable internet grader. There are also three sessions where you have to demonstrate competency in client interviewing, counseling and negotiations. You are video taped doing these things with another classmate (in the case of the negotiations) or a hired actor (in the case of interviewing and negotiating) and your grade is based on your performance on the tape. Assignments are pass/fail (though I understand now it's more like pass, fail, awesome). You must pass every assignment to pass the course and you have to wait to the end of the program to redo assignments. You can also ask for a regrade of your assignment but you have to pay a fee to do so. Fail too many assignments and you have to do the course over again.

By the time you get to the bar call stage, everything is probably a foregone conclusion. Your principal makes an application in court to have you admitted as a member of the Law Society. He or she will probably tell all kinds of embarrassing stories about you like the time you broke down and started crying in your office during articles because your principal was making your life a living hell. Then you swear an oath and go to a reception afterwards. In Alberta, you can get called to the bar in any of the three levels of court (Provincial Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Court of Appeal). You have to wear a barrister's gown but they frown upon you wearing a powdered wig. My robes and stuff cost over $1000. They've sat in a closet unused since. In other provinces, they call dozens or even hundreds of lawyers to the bar at the same time. In Alberta, we're one of the last provinces that does all this individually. It's just you and your principal up there.

Sorry you asked?

Titan · 04-03-2008, 09:09 AM

Good summary Fredr123 but I would have to say that not all articles are a living hell. At the City everyone was there to help you and you progressed way faster than private firms. I was doing discoveries on my own by the tenth month. I have heard it is way worse at the big firms where it is a bit of "I went through hell so now I will make this person's experience hell". I don't get that attitude but c'est la vie. Maybe that is why I'm not at a big firm.

I also agree with the comment of being patient and contacting as many of the small to medium firms you can.

Titan · 04-03-2008, 09:10 AM

I would also add that very few people buy their own robes and gowns unless they are positive they are going to be litigators and/or their parents are filthy rich. But that is just my impression.

fredr123 · 04-03-2008, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titan

Good summary Fredr123 but I would have to say that not all articles are a living hell. At the City everyone was there to help you and you progressed way faster than private firms. I was doing discoveries on my own by the tenth month. I have heard it is way worse at the big firms where it is a bit of "I went through hell so now I will make this person's experience hell". I don't get that attitude but c'est la vie. Maybe that is why I'm not at a big firm.

I also agree with the comment of being patient and contacting as many of the small to medium firms you can.

In fairness, my principal was actually really good. My articles weren't a living hell either. I've been lead to believe that experiences like mine and yours are atypical but becoming more common than in years past. The horror stories from colleagues at big firms or people who articled in the Days of Yore are quite disturbing.

fredr123 · 04-03-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titan

I would also add that very few people buy their own robes and gowns unless they are positive they are going to be litigators and/or their parents are filthy rich. But that is just my impression.

Agree. I tried hard to just borrow someone else's robes. Alas I'm too damned fat. In Ontario there are a few places where you can rent robes. I am unaware of any place here that will do it. My firm ended up reimbursing me for the robes since I was hired for litigation after my call.

Titan · 04-03-2008, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredr123

Agree. I tried hard to just borrow someone else's robes. Alas I'm too damned fat. In Ontario there are a few places where you can rent robes. I am unaware of any place here that will do it. My firm ended up reimbursing me for the robes since I was hired for litigation after my call.

Worked out for you well then. I had several colleagues at the City that were similarly stout as I and so I could borrow. Also, lots of litigators.

Congrats on the hire. Too bad on the litigation.

I kid, I kid. Some of my best friends are litigators. I did that for about 6 years and enough was enough. The constant preparation for things that never happened bugged me. Anyhoo.

IntenseFan · 04-03-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think CP has one of the highest lawyer/poster ratios of any hockey website.

There are tonnes of us on here, but I won't out the rest of them.

Don't worry too much about it Killer, if anyone looks at my user info they will see my occupation and I will be "outed" as you state.

With respect to some of the above posts, I am going to have to agree that articling was pretty much the worst job I ever had - including those that required me to wear a colourful uniform and a hat.

Titan · 04-03-2008, 11:45 AM

For the litigators in the crowd I stumbled across this and found it humorous and useful.

http://www.lawsocietyalberta.com/fil...011_100401.pdf

blankall · 04-03-2008, 11:55 AM

Thanks to all the posters for the advice. I will most likely be PMing a few of you.

Basically, my situation is this. I'm not overly concerned about gettign into a big firm right now. For me the biggest concern is experience and resume building for the future. Obviously I want to work with some great people. I've heard too many horror stories of articled students getting overworked and then being cut loose for random reasons at big firms. If I do go biglaw at some point, it seems to make more sense to do that once I actually have skills and a specialty. The small hit in salary seems for the present seems to justify my longer term plans. Plus small firms in Calgary, for the most part, pay more than large ones in Vancouver for articling.

I participated in the match last summer, but was not really interested in the firms interested in me. I was basically told by a couple of firms in the 40 lawyer range that my marks were good and all I had to do was show interest. I, of course, cancelled second interviews etc... A decision I am beginning to regret, having not found articles yet.

What areas of law seem to be big in Calgary for medium and smaller sized firms?

tvp2003 · 04-03-2008, 12:35 PM

Recent law grad working in Calgary Big Law...

Can't really give you much advice on the small to mid-size firms; from what I've seen, the Calgary market is still pretty good, but has slowed a few notches from the scorching pace of 2-3 years ago. The income trust ruling and the Alberta royalties issue has put a dent into things, but there is still lots of work to go around.

Good luck with finding articles and have fun with CPLED

blankall · 04-03-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fotze

You shouldn't be doing law for the money, it should be for the law-type reasons.

Seriously, have you met any lawyers before?

J/K. Our articlign salaries are extremely low. Considerign that many articling jobs involve 70+ hours of week and we are paying interest on debt gathered from usually seven years of school (tuition during the law school part is 10k/yr) salary defintely becomes a factor. Compared to US law schools we have it good. Tuition there is usually in the 40k range.

Salary in vancouver for articlign usually ranges from 35k for smaller firms to 45k for the larger ones.

@theCBE · 04-03-2008, 02:38 PM

Didn't realize there were that many lawyers on CP. Anybody do their law degree outside of Canada? I'm graduating in a few months and planning on coming back to Calgary, it will take a little while to get my NCA accredation, but once that is done I will be looking for article work as well.