Manhattan sized Antarctic ice falls into the ocean

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

I wish some of this global warming would arrive in Toronto... oh look! More snow!!

Where's Cheese swooning over Ontario weather when you need him.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Where's Cheese swooning over Ontario weather when you need him.

He's busy shoveling snow while we are polishing up our irons.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by 4X4

He's busy shoveling snow while we are polishing up our irons.

Polishing? I've been at the driving range a few times this past week

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Dion

Polishing? I've been at the driving range a few times this past week

I forgot to clean my clubs after my last round last year. Solution: the car wash. Power wash those bad boys. It also works on dirty runners and boots. Oh and if you ever cook chicken in the oven and forget to clean the pan for a week? Take it to the car wash.

[Got Miikka?]

Haven't read through everything so not sure if it's been mentioned, but Manhattan isn't exactly the biggest island in the world... 2 miles wide by about 13 long I think. How many of those could you fit into Calgary's landmass?

Not a commentary on the global warming debate BTW, I'm not getting into that.

Just saying.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Got Miikka?

Haven't read through everything so not sure if it's been mentioned, but Manhattan isn't exactly the biggest island in the world... 2 miles wide by about 13 long I think. How many of those could you fit into Calgary's landmass?

Not a commentary on the global warming debate BTW, I'm not getting into that.

Just saying.

The link actually says 7 times the size of Manhattan, FWIW.

[Got Miikka?]

Originally Posted by 4X4

The link actually says 7 times the size of Manhattan, FWIW.

Oh! Well that would require me actually clicking the link but as I stated I didn't bother to read the thread either so we already know I'm thorough.

Just going by the thread title.

Continue on.

[REDVAN]

I wish we didn't have a new climate change thread every two days.

Climate change is a natural process on the earth. The earth is supposed to be in equilibrium, and since it is not (ie/ weather, things living on it, etc), it cycles between colder and hotter times.

This could have been posted in the previous ba-jillion "global warming" threads....

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

I wish we didn't have a new climate change thread every two days.

Climate change is a natural process on the earth. The earth is supposed to be in equilibrium, and since it is not (ie/ weather, things living on it, etc), it cycles between colder and hotter times.

This could have been posted in the previous ba-jillion "global warming" threads....

Yes, climate change is a natural process, but that doesn't mean that it is immune to influence from human activities.

Forest fires are a natural process, yet human induced forest fires aren't.

Rivers change course naturally, but humans can also change the course of rivers.

Species become extinct naturally, but humans can also increase extinctions.

Disease is natural, it doesn't mean we should try to spread it.

Floods are natural, yet humans can affect those.

Just because something is a natural process, doesn't mean that we don't have negative influences and manipulate the processes.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Got Miikka?

Haven't read through everything so not sure if it's been mentioned, but Manhattan isn't exactly the biggest island in the world... 2 miles wide by about 13 long I think. How many of those could you fit into Calgary's landmass?

It was about half the size of the City of Calgary.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Where's Cheese swooning over Ontario weather when you need him.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Forest fires are a natural process, yet human induced forest fires aren't.

Rivers change course naturally, but humans can also change the course of rivers.

Species become extinct naturally, but humans can also increase extinctions.

Disease is natural, it doesn't mean we should try to spread it.

Floods are natural, yet humans can affect those.

Just because something is a natural process, doesn't mean that we don't have negative influences and manipulate the processes.

All over those examples, humans have been a drop in the bucket compared to external forces. I suggest the same is true for the environment. The sun has more of a say in it than Al Gore.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Gozer

All over those examples, humans have been a drop in the bucket compared to external forces. I suggest the same is true for the environment. The sun has more of a say in it than Al Gore.

Sure, but humans have only existed on the Earth for an amount of time that can be considered a drop in the bucket. I wouldn't want the Earth to go back in a direction that is unsuitable for human survival.

A drop of ricin in a bucket of water will still do a lot of damage.

[Itse]

I just don't get the people who don't worry about global warming.

People are quite rationally very timid when it comes to their own economy and environment. They generally don't want stuff happening that _possibly_ hurts their own personal economy or _possibly_ make the area they live in unlivable, or even just a little bit worse (like when someone wants to build a small factory, a homeless shelter or a free drug rehab clinic next door).

But when bad stuff is _possibly_ happening to the whole world, which, you know, includes like everyone (and that means you too), an amazing amount of those same people just don't care. There's just a serious disconnection here. Would putting up big signs that say "Global warming CAN affect YOU and it COULD BE BAD!" help? It's kind of stating the obvious, but hey, they did that all the time in the wartime.

Yeah, I think what everyone agrees is that there's no way to know what the global warming will mean, except that for sure huge parts of land will go under the ocean. Just the financial consequences of building walls to stop places like Florida and New York (just to mention some small plots with some mentionable value) from flooding are going to be insane. That's just money down the drain, th But really what I don't get is how anyone could think that even the chance of everything going to hell is okay.

"We'll adapt", great. Tell that to the potential one billion people killed by famine and related bad things (like wars). And hell, forget about famine. Really, nobody knows what will happen, but we do know it CAN be truly disastrous. Why take the chance? It's not like we have a spare planet waiting if we manage to screw this up badly enough.

It's kinda like we'd be shooting a dozen nucler missiles randomly around the globe. I mean half of it is ocean anyway, and there's all that desert, and you know the casualty numbers of Hiroshima and Nagasaki tend to get vastly exaggerated. So no worries. It's quite possible nothing will happen.

The most ridiculous idea is that fighting global warming somehow would hurt the economy. Why would it do that? Mostly it's about energy efficiency and getting rid of fossile fuels, both of which already make long range financial sense for anyone who currently imports fossile fuels (all of Europe for starters). Yeah sure, some old companies that spend lots of energy would suffer. Others would adapt and thrive. The sum of that equation is going to be either pretty close to zero or more likely a big overall boost. The oil crisis was great for economy in the long run due to the boost it gave to technological developments and simply because we learnt to waste less energy. Energy always costs something. Saving it is always a good thing. And just think, we could finally let the Middle-East sort itself out.

Currently we have the option of spending money mostly on developing technology and using those techologies to save energy. Saving energy saves money in the short run, developing technologies is essentially always a good thing in the long run. But the longer we wait before we really start that project, the bigger the chance that we're going to have to spend huge amounts of money on retroactive measures, like building walls on the oceanside, or moving whole cities because some areas just suddenly became too hot to live in, or rebuilding the roofs and the whole infrastructure on some other city because the rainfall and snowfall got so heavy. Or some other thing that's essentially just a waste of time and money when we could just start now and spend that same money on something more sensible.

It's also a lot easier to try affect things we do know about (like what causes global warming), than try to prepare ourselves for something we can only guess about (the effects of global warming).

Some people believe in intelligent design, some refuse to believe that smoking is bad for your health, and some deny global warming. It's all the same really. Stupid is as stupid does.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Itse

But when bad stuff is _possibly_ happening to the whole world, which, you know, includes like everyone (and that means you too), an amazing amount of those same people just don't care. There's just a serious disconnection here. Would putting up big signs that say "Global warming CAN affect YOU and it COULD BE BAD!" help? It's kind of stating the obvious, but hey, they did that all the time in the wartime.

You're right it could affect me and it could be bad. Then again it might not affect me and it might not be very bad. Theres simply not enough science done for them to make any reasonably accurate predictions. Almost all the global warming research done is by definition, junk science as it is near impossible to have a stable experiment where you can manipulate the variables independantly.

Yeah, I think what everyone agrees is that there's no way to know what the global warming will mean, except that for sure huge parts of land will go under the ocean. Just the financial consequences of building walls to stop places like Florida and New York (just to mention some small plots with some mentionable value) from flooding are going to be insane. That's just money down the drain, th But really what I don't get is how anyone could think that even the chance of everything going to hell is okay.

Estimated sea level rise over the next 100 years at current rates of acceleration. Roughly 1 foot. I think we can hold off on the walls for awhile though our beaches might be getting a little smaller and some small oceanic islands might feel the pinch.

"We'll adapt", great. Tell that to the potential one billion people killed by famine and related bad things (like wars). And hell, forget about famine. Really, nobody knows what will happen, but we do know it CAN be truly disastrous. Why take the chance? It's not like we have a spare planet waiting if we manage to screw this up badly enough.

The famine in certain countrys has alot more to do with lack of population control and ongoing conflicts then Global warming. Addressing those 2 issues would do WAY more for them then trying to eliminate global warming.

The most ridiculous idea is that fighting global warming somehow would hurt the economy. Why would it do that? Mostly it's about energy efficiency and getting rid of fossile fuels, both of which already make long range financial sense for anyone who currently imports fossile fuels (all of Europe for starters).

See your problem here is this is a Calgary message board, the heart of Oil country in Canada. Eliminating fossil fuel use would crush the economy.

It's also a lot easier to try affect things we do know about (like what causes global warming), than try to prepare ourselves for something we can only guess about (the effects of global warming).

While there are a great many causes of Global warming/cooling that have supposedly been identified, however, the quantitative effect that each cause has can only be guessed at.

Some people believe in intelligent design, some refuse to believe that smoking is bad for your health, and some deny global warming. It's all the same really. Stupid is as stupid does.

I don't think the fact that Global warming is happening is debated much anymore. The causes and effects however are.

[HOZ]

Call me when it is Long Island Sized. We'll call the UN and make it a new country.

[REDVAN]

If humans make a big enough dent in the environment, then we'll go extinct. It won't happen in the near future.

So that's why we don't care.

[automaton 3]

Interestingly, the Argo float project indicates a slight cooling of the oceans over the last 5 years or so:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=394939

http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Dan02

You're right it could affect me and it could be bad. Then again it might not affect me and it might not be very bad. Theres simply not enough science done for them to make any reasonably accurate predictions.

Well you know there's actually thousands of studies on the subject, most of which give a pretty good general outline of what's going on and what to do about it. If you choose to ignore it that's your business, but it doesn't mean it's not there.

You could say this is more solidly studied than say, the shape of the earth.

See your problem here is this is a Calgary message board, the heart of Oil country in Canada. Eliminating fossil fuel use would crush the economy.

Hmm, I see your point. You think that fighting global warming would affect oil prices, which would hurt the economy in your area. I think that's pessimistic to the point of unrealism.

First, we're not going to create an oil-free global economy in a very long time, propably not as long as there still is oil. Every drop of it will be used, it's just a question of how fast and at what price.

If it lasts longer, that's good in the sense that you'll have your oil business longer. The only problem is price then. However, the funny thing is, the less gasoline a car needs, the more you can charge for it. The price of oil is a pretty artificial construction, controlled mostly by oil-producing countries. One of the deciding factors is that it can't be so expensive that people would stop using it alltogether. But if they need less gallons, they can be charged more per gallon, so you can essentially take away the same amount of money and give back less gasoline.

Other points: The less oil you yourself use, the more you can export. And spending that oil costs money for you too, you know.

Also, the consumption of oil is going to go up anyway, no matter what we do in the western countries. China and India will still be there to by your oil, and . And there will always be things and people that will prefer high-consumption vehicles. Armies, police, ambulances, airplanes, sports cars, monster SUV:s, trucks, people who distrust electricity...

Generally speaking, oil is a good form of energy, and as such there will always be a demand for it; but the more specialized those demands become, the more you can charge for that oil since then it's a "special" product. I don't know if you have the phenomenon there, but I'm guessing you do: firewood at gas stations. Those ridiculously small packages that you can use to heat up a fireplace maybe three times. Ever think about how insanely expensive that wood actually is? Kind of the same thing, expect there would be tons of people actually needing those small insanely priced bundles of firewood.

And I think most importantly, you can't control this thing. If what you're afraid of happens anyway (price of oil plummets with the demand), wouldn't it be great if you were prepared for this thing, or better still, in the frontline, the sellers of new low-energy technologies?