Ben Stein "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"

[troutman]

Can you count the fallacies in this Herald editorial today?

New breed of atheist treads too much on glib ground
Mark Milke, Calgary Herald

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...a-3c0807434599

I'll start:

1) Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, and Pol Pot -- atheists all -- went on ideological killing sprees which made the religious wars of the distant past look like an afternoon tea party tete-a-tete between bluebloods.

This tired argument has been destroyed so many times, I am surprised people continue to make it. These killing sprees had nothing to do with atheism. Hitler was a Christian. I agree with the writer that religion is not the cause of all human conflict.

2) Atheistic morality and values talk was twaddle, and that the foundation of ethical systems was ultimately irrational inspiration, not reason. That reality puts atheists who desire the ethics of religion -- treat others charitably, don't steal, cheat or murder -- but who dislike admitting God might be even a possibility, in a pretty pickle.

Nonsense. Morality has its roots in the natural world, not religion.

[transplant99]

Untrue, minds do get changed. I used to argue for a 6000 year old earth, and I did so not based on science but based on belief that scripture was inerrant and then went about to find or (mostly) make up science that fit my belief. So I know exactly of which I speak.

moreso speaking about this particular forum...sorry not to be more specific.

The problem is the ID proponents specifically and some creationists in general make an issue out of things because they feel it threatens some aspect of their beliefs

Works both ways as evidenced in this thread...no? Seems to me that anyone who believes that creationism is the only way things happened, are getting run over by those who disagree. Almost indignant about it actually.

remember, you are shooting volleys at a belief, that is not a quantifiable target. A belief is a belief....not necessarily some lab produced fact.

If someone's going to try to drag us back into the dark ages, I for one will fight back.

Huh? Who is dragging YOU back to anything. people are allowed to have different opinions and beliefs than others...what need is there to "fight" back about it? Unless this was some government bill to teach things in the school system or some other way affects your life directly, not sure why you would be so upset by it.

Hyperbole is a legitimate form of humour, if someone can't laugh at themselves then they're taking life too seriously.

If you say so, and i don't necessarily disagrre. However, if i was to start ridiculing a specific religion because of what i think/believe/say....how long til I get a response from you or another moderator?

Some of the claims made by ID and creationism are so demonstrably false that the ideas SHOULD be ridiculed; what other response is there?

right...ridiculing is the ONLy way to go when in a discussion with those you disagree with.

Speaking of which........

Oh no, someone was assertive about something, help us all!

Again if you are Ok with that ^^ stuff...so be it. I think it's in very poor taste and form..and I think Im still allowed to do that...no?

[photon]

Works both ways as evidenced in this thread...no? Seems to me that anyone who believes that creationism is the only way things happened, are getting run over by those who disagree. Almost indignant about it actually.

remember, you are shooting volleys at a belief, that is not a quantifiable target. A belief is a belief....not necessarily some lab produced fact.

No, it doesn't work both ways.

No one here is attacking creationism, they're attacking ID and a specific brand of creationism that both try to propose themselves as science, not as matters of faith.

I'm not taking volley's at anyone's belief, read what I've written, I've said over and over and I'll say it again though it's getting tiring having to restate myself: I have no problem with someone that believes the earth, universe, everything was created by whatever God they so desire.

The problem is when they take that belief (which we're not shooting volleys at),based on faith, and try to translate that into something they claim is on equal ground with science. Without actually doing anything that resembles science but claiming it is. THAT is the problem.

Huh? Who is dragging YOU back to anything. people are allowed to have different opinions and beliefs than others...what need is there to "fight" back about it? Unless this was some government bill to teach things in the school system or some other way affects your life directly, not sure why you would be so upset by it.

It does affect my life directly; fighting against the education of our children directly affects future generations and our overall progress. Why do we see countries like the US and Turkey where acceptance of basic science is so low compared to other countries? Because of a lack of education, and groups like ID and some creationists are one of the causes, they fight to have science removed and pseudo-science instilled.

If people want to teach their kids the earth is flat on their own free time, that's allowable, but I'm going to be vocal about it because I think they're hindering their kids. It's not about one scientific fact or another, it's about rational and critical thinking skills. Without those you end up with a credulous society that spends their resources on psychics and magnetic bracelets.

If you say so, and i don't necessarily disagrre. However, if i was to start ridiculing a specific religion because of what i think/believe/say....how long til I get a response from you or another moderator?

Well first, it of course depends on what's being said. Second, no one is ridiculing a specific religion, it's the specific belief of young earth creationism and Intelligent Design that's being ridiculed. As has been established, no single religion has cornered the market on those.

Plus, more Christians do not subscribe to ID or young earth creationism than do.

right...ridiculing is the ONLy way to go when in a discussion with those you disagree with.

Speaking of which........

Ok let me be more specific, what else is left when the other side won't actually discuss anything, when they refuse to consider anything, when the only reason they're in the discussion at all is to change everyone to their side, not to learn or exchange ideas. That's not a discussion at all. What other tactic would you suggest?

The two comics I posted are meant to illustrate the absurdity of some of the statements made by IDers; humour to communicate an idea.

Again if you are Ok with that ^^ stuff...so be it. I think it's in very poor taste and form..and I think Im still allowed to do that...no?

See and I think the backhanded insult at the end of that is poor taste and form. I don't think I've posted anything that is insulting or demeaning (at least not to a person, it's fine to attack an idea), I strongly believe in do unto others and I try not to post anything that I wouldn't accept being posted to me.

[4X4]

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!

[transplant99]

No one here is attacking creationism,

Oh...I guess I misinterpreted AC's "comics" then.

The problem is when they take that belief (which we're not shooting volleys at),based on faith, and try to translate that into something they claim is on equal ground with science. Without actually doing anything that resembles science but claiming it is. THAT is the problem.

I don't disagree and I think you would be surprised to see where I fall in this debate.

But....very very little has been said in here that would make your statement relative. So in essence that would be arguing against the core belief to start with...at least that's how I read it.

It does affect my life directly; fighting against the education of our children directly affects future generations and our overall progress.

Except that...it isnt being taught to our children. At least not that I can tell and unless parents are sending their kids to private schools that teach such a curriculum, I doubt it will ever be anything more than what it is now. A beleif system perpetrated by some and ridiculed by others.

Well first, it of course depends on what's being said. Second, no one is ridiculing a specific religion, it's the specific belief of young earth creationism and Intelligent Design that's being ridiculed. As has been established, no single religion has cornered the market on those.

Plus, more Christians do not subscribe to ID or young earth creationism than do.

Hmmm...I guess we will agree to disagree on this. But I doubt that the belittling of a specific religion and some of their customs to those who claim to believe that Creationism is on par with Evolution would be the same.

If people want to teach their kids the earth is flat on their own free time, that's allowable, but I'm going to be vocal about it because I think they're hindering their kids. It's not about one scientific fact or another, it's about rational and critical thinking skills. Without those you end up with a credulous society that spends their resources on psychics and magnetic bracelets

Or Afghanistan, or Iran, or a plethora of other countries. Sorta my point above.

See and I think the backhanded insult at the end of that is poor taste and form.

there was no insult whatsoever Photon...come on man. It was just pointing out how others can disagree and still be allowed to voice such an opinion without the nonsense that I see in this thread. No more and no less.

I know you are an extremely level-headed guy and as such you have the position here you do. And you do it 100% correctly.

My point is that I think you are not seeing it from the other side...or I may be wrong and am misinterpreting it all.

But I have a feeling if someone posted a comic suggesting something that completely denounced a specific group, it wouldnt be removed pronto. Thats what some of those things ^^^ are doing, and no its not just in hyperbole, its a direct attack on a belief system that, although I disagree with, is something that should be allowed to be voiced/discussed etc.

[photon]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Oh...I guess I misinterpreted AC's "comics" then.

They all seem to be attacking Intelligent Design or the specific type of creationism that I mentioned, except one which I think is talking about the religious right in the US in general.

I don't disagree and I think you would be surprised to see where I fall in this debate.

Probably not surprised, I can appreciate what you're trying to say, and I try not to read someone's position about something until they state it.

But....very very little has been said in here that would make your statement relative. So in essence that would be arguing against the core belief to start with...at least that's how I read it.

ID at its core is exactly what I described, taking faith and trying to translate it into science for the express purpose of circumventing separation of church and state laws.

And I don't argue against the core belief; to me the core belief is defined as God created life, the universe and everything in it. That's a statement of faith, science doesn't speak to it because it lies outside the realm of science. And that's fine. When that faith is brought into the realm of science and claims are made that ARE testable by science (like the earth being 6000 years old, or life not evolving from a common ancestor), and when those claims are made without evidence with no rigor and held up to be equivalent to science. That's wrong and encourages magical thinking.

Except that...it isnt being taught to our children. At least not that I can tell and unless parents are sending their kids to private schools that teach such a curriculum, I doubt it will ever be anything more than what it is now. A beleif system perpetrated by some and ridiculed by others.

It isn't now, despite repeated attempts to get it into the education system, and you can bet it won't stop, so it has to be defended against. Plus there's all the adults who have moved beyond the education system, to me it's worthwhile to try to educate them as well.

Hmmm...I guess we will agree to disagree on this. But I doubt that the belittling of a specific religion and some of their customs to those who claim to believe that Creationism is on par with Evolution would be the same.

Maybe and maybe not, but people's actions on any side of any fence aren't usually dictated by how to maximize the conversion rate or whatever; people are people and everyone deals with things and communicates in different ways.

Those comics, while they probably won't change anyone's mind, hopefully get some people to think about things a little bit. Or just make them laugh I guess.

Or Afghanistan, or Iran, or a plethora of other countries. Sorta my point above.

True enough I guess, I see what you mean.

there was no insult whatsoever Photon...come on man. It was just pointing out how others can disagree and still be allowed to voice such an opinion without the nonsense that I see in this thread. No more and no less.

Alright, my apologies, I read "I think I'm still allowed to do that" as implying I'm trying to stifle opinions.

My point is that I think you are not seeing it from the other side...or I may be wrong and am misinterpreting it all.

But I have a feeling if someone posted a comic suggesting something that completely denounced a specific group, it wouldnt be removed pronto. Thats what some of those things ^^^ are doing, and no its not just in hyperbole, its a direct attack on a belief system that, although I disagree with, is something that should be allowed to be voiced/discussed etc.

Since I've been on both sides I think I can see things from both sides, but of course everyone thinks they can even if they can't

Even if it is attacking a belief system, to me beliefs are fair game for attack, though criticize is maybe a better word. Criticizing a belief system isn't the same as saying that that belief system should be eliminated. Beliefs are something voluntary, unlike race or gender, and should be scrutinized.

Heck beliefs scrutinize and attack themselves all the time; otherwise the church would still support slavery and be against women's rights.

And in my mind anyway, all this discussion isn't about the belief that God created it all, it's about the methodology, about how God did it all, specific claims about the age of the earth and such.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by transplant99

But I have a feeling if someone posted a comic suggesting something that completely denounced a specific group, it wouldnt be removed pronto. Thats what some of those things ^^^ are doing, and no its not just in hyperbole, its a direct attack on a belief system that, although I disagree with, is something that should be allowed to be voiced/discussed etc.

The comics aren't a denunciation of the group they are a denunciation of the idea.

Groups of people should absolutely be protected from ridicule and discrimination.

However, no idea should ever be protected that way. Every idea should be examined, poked, prodded, made fun of, and twisted around to see if it holds up to the scrutiny.

Creationists have their own comics:

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by troutman

1) Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, and Pol Pot -- atheists all -- went on ideological killing sprees which made the religious wars of the distant past look like an afternoon tea party tete-a-tete between bluebloods.

This tired argument has been destroyed so many times, I am surprised people continue to make it. These killing sprees had nothing to do with atheism. Hitler was a Christian. I agree with the writer that religion is not the cause of all human conflict.

2) Atheistic morality and values talk was twaddle, and that the foundation of ethical systems was ultimately irrational inspiration, not reason. That reality puts atheists who desire the ethics of religion -- treat others charitably, don't steal, cheat or murder -- but who dislike admitting God might be even a possibility, in a pretty pickle.

Nonsense. Morality has its roots in the natural world, not religion.

Even if "atheism" was the cause for all those crazy dictators and the nasty things they did, the godless heathens still come up pretty short in the old "Who Killed The Most People" contest.

Why do they even bother bringing it up?

I love the "twaddle" comment. I wonder what particular brand of worship he currently is adapting to meet his lifestyle and banking on to get him into paradise for all of eternity.

[Blaster86]

IF YOU ARE GOING TO POST COMICS THEN
THIS THREAD NEEDS MORE DEADPOOL




sorry... couldn't resist =|

[Dion]

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by driveway

I know it's a joke, but is it like that for people who don't believe in evolution?

Just reading the regular newspaper over the weekend you were bound to come across some version of this story...

An analysis of six-million-year-old bones from an early human ancestor that lived in what is now Kenya suggests that the species was the earliest known hominin to walk, a new study says. "This provides really solid evidence that these fossils actually belong to an upright-walking early human ancestor," said study lead author Brian Richmond, a biological anthropologist at George Washington University in Washington, D.C.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-ancestor.html

What do they say or think when they come across something like this? It happens every day.

[photon]

I don't think that one's legit, too much like a parody.

Originally Posted by Dion

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Even if "atheism" was the cause for all those crazy dictators and the nasty things they did, the godless heathens still come up pretty short in the old "Who Killed The Most People" contest.

Why do they even bother bringing it up?

I love the "twaddle" comment. I wonder what particular brand of worship he currently is adapting to meet his lifestyle and banking on to get him into paradise for all of eternity.

They must also be avoiding the part where the Catholics basically murdered a few million people.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Azure

They must also be avoiding the part where the Catholics basically murdered a few million people.

What event are you referring to?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

What event are you referring to?

The crusades for one....although they could be seen as 'war'....and not 'murder'...whatever the difference is.

Not to mention all those people the Catholic church burned as heretics....and all those they killed during the reformation.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Azure

The crusades for one....although they could be seen as 'war'....and not 'murder'...whatever the difference is.

Not to mention all those people the Catholic church burned as heretics....and all those they killed during the reformation.

I'm just wondering where you go the numbers from. No one would argue that the Catholic church doesn't have its hands dirty.... although most of the heretic burning was post reformation conducted by Calvinist sects, or was isolated to particular cultures (such as the Spanish inquisition).

And yeah, I'd classify the Crusades as a series of wars. Atrocities alomst always happen in war, not that is is right, but it happens (including some modern day ones by us). The crusades were not unlike the Mongol invasions or Viking pillages, but I doubt too many people would hold it against modern Mongolians or Scandinavians.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm just wondering where you go the numbers from. No one would argue that the Catholic church doesn't have its hands dirty.... although most of the heretic burning was post reformation conducted by Calvinist sects, or was isolated to particular cultures (such as the Spanish inquisition).

And yeah, I'd classify the Crusades as a series of wars. Atrocities alomst always happen in war, not that is is right, but it happens (including some modern day ones by us). The crusades were not unlike the Mongol invasions or Viking pillages, but I doubt too many people would hold it against modern Mongolians or Scandinavians.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=ca

Add the Crusades in there......

All I'm saying here is that atheism doesn't drive people to 'kill.' Because many more have been killed in the name of religion.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Azure

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=ca

Add the Crusades in there......

All I'm saying here is that atheism doesn't drive people to 'kill.' Because many more have been killed in the name of religion.

According to your link (which inludes the crusades), the numbers are no where near a couple of million. Also consider that region under Orthodoxy also participated.

I get your point though, religon has often been used as fuel for killing... as has ideology in general. I just saw "Catholic killed a couple of million people", and took exception to that specific statement... but not the overall point.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

According to your link (which inludes the crusades), the numbers are no where near a couple of million. Also consider that region under Orthodoxy also participated.

I get your point though, religon has often been used as fuel for killing... as has ideology in general. I just saw "Catholic killed a couple of million people", and took exception to that specific statement... but not the overall point.

I meant to add the Crusades in there and you're easily over a million.

Agreed with your second point. And it hasn't 'just' been Christianity. Religion, if used by a tool to control people has often resulted in innocent people being killed.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by troutman

This tired argument has been destroyed so many times, I am surprised people continue to make it. These killing sprees had nothing to do with atheism. Hitler was a Christian. I agree with the writer that religion is not the cause of all human conflict.

.

Hitler was born a Christian, but later rejected Christianity. In Mein Kampf, he mentioned that he was doing God's work, but after he took power, he outright rejected religon. In fact, he stated in a speech before that "Christianity was an invention from sick minds".

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mis...ca_hitler.html

Here are some specific Hitler quotes:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, s? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)