Democratic Presidential Primaries 2008

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Can't we all agree that this sort of "guilt by association" is foolish anyway?

In a way, certainly.

In other ways he's been associating with him for 20 years. And not JUST going to church either.

Just because Obama went to that church doesn't mean he automatically agrees with everything Rev. Wright says. Likewise, McCain's having been ministered to by an apocalyptic millenarian who believes that the conflict in the middle east is a holy war does not mean that McCain agrees.

Agreed. Except McCain hasn't been ministered too for 20 years by that foolish idiot who believes in the apocalypse.

Both of these guys are just about the most secular candidates this country has seen in years. Let's not try to manufacture a connection where there isn't one. Both men go to church.

See, if McCain would be going to some crazy fundamental church....would you have a problem with that?

Because it seems a like numerous American voters have a problem with Obama going to a crazy black church.

Neither of them looks to their pastor for policy advice.

Yet, didn't Obama have Wright involved with his campaign?

Talked of him as a mentor? A sounding board? Even mentioned receiving political advice from him?

Can't we just leave it at that? I don't like Rev. Wright any better than you do, but after reading Obama's speech I feel I have a better understanding of where those remarks come from--and to call them "black supremacist" is frankly inflammatory Bill O'Reilly stuff.

You know, I could leave it at that if Obama would come out and say that it was a mistake to every associate himself with Rev. Wright.

Honestly--I suggest you read the full text of Obama's speech. It's about the most nuanced and bold statement on race in American politics since the 1960s. No kidding. And I suspect you'll like what he has to say, if you give it a chance.

I did read it. From start to finish.

And I liked it....long-winded perhaps...and not exactly what I was hoping for given the circumstances, but still a great speech.

He should have said it earlier in the campaign though....although that really doesn't matter.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Based on your accuracy of using quotes... transcript please.

The 'exact' comment....I believe from one of his sermons released on DVD.

Go buy it...since you agree with him anyways.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Please read the article I linked to in that post:

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59230

The Reverend acknowledges his sources for authority and there is a lot of hatred involved.

What you call hatred, I call justifiable anger. This Cone they speak of is a relic of the Black Power movement of the 60's. It's mellowed somewhat.
If you want to go around condemning your sources for inspiration, try Paul whose hatred against women turns my stomach.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

Replace the word 'black' with 'white'...and tell me if that sounds any better.

Nope, it sounds worse.

I don't have a problem with black Americans preaching about sticking together and sharing "black" values. They haven't exactly had the easiest ride in that country.

Although anyone who brings up the idea of racial supremacy is an idiot. I don't know if he did or not.

Anyone preaching about a "white value system" is also an idiot and is only complaining because he's too stupid to take advantage of anything.

The funny thing about all this "if it was white people saying that..." bitching is that the same people who take offense to it are likely the same people that say "those people should look after themselves and not expect the government to do it for them". It's exactly what they are doing.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

What you call hatred, I call justifiable anger. This Cone they speak of is a relic of the Black Power movement of the 60's. It's mellowed somewhat.
If you want to go around condemning your sources for inspiration, try Paul whose hatred against women turns my stomach.

Paul? Ron Paul? What does he have to do with this?

Deflecting the issue at hand doesn't make it go away you know.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

The 'exact' comment....I believe from one of his sermons released on DVD.

Go buy it...since you agree with him anyways.

You believe? So you don't have the quote and you don't have proper context. So you really don't have anything but choose to believe this. Mind you, your signature says all anyone needs to know on the subject.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Azure

Replace the word 'black' with 'white'...and tell me if that sounds any better.

Instead of 'white' supremacy....you have 'black' supremacy.

Oh, and instead of beating around the bush....why don't you get right down to it. Do you see a problem with the racially charged comments that Rev. Wright was making?

I think a lot of Rev. Wright's comments are way off base (as they go beyond pushing towards equality and actually reflect hate), but replaceing the word white with the word black in that church statement on black values does not work at all.

Racism is a result of power within the society. The majority will always have power over the minority. Furthermore, as minorities black people will always have to work at preserving their community and not being assimilated. There are black communities with serious issues in teh States and they are largely the result of race and a history of oppression. So when a black church wants to help the black community I see zero problem with that. In fact, I think that is something they should be rewarded for. It is totally different from a society devoted to helping the "white (whatever that means) community".

One is helping an historically oppresed minority, the other is persecuting an historically oppresed community. Yes I realize there are poor white people too, but that's what programs directed at low income earners are for.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The funny thing about all this "if it was white people saying that..." bitching is that the same people who take offense to it are likely the same people that say "those people should look after themselves and not expect the government to do it for them". It's exactly what they are doing.

I would think that every race/culture/ethnic group should be responsible to look after their own lives.

Nobody should ever depend on the government, ever.

But you're right....racial supremacy is wrong BOTH ways.

Yet I don't see the benefit in continually talking about the 60's, segregation slavery, and overall racism as if they are still in rampant use today. Yes I know black people haven't exactly had the best ride in the past century....but you could say that for a lot of other ethnic groups too. Does that make it any better? No.

Personally I think Black people would do a lot better if they took initiative and began trying to fix some of the others that exist amongst their culture.

Unlike what Rev. Wright said....the reason there are more black prisoners than white, isn't the governments fault. Its a problem that stems all the way back to how the parents are raising their kids.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You believe? So you don't have the quote and you don't have proper context. So you really don't have anything but choose to believe this. Mind you, your signature says all anyone needs to know on the subject.

If you really want to listen to it....it IS on Youtube.

I know Lanny....nobody wants to be caught approving something like that. Its alright.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by blankall

I think a lot of Rev. Wright's comments are way off base (as they go beyond pushing towards equality and actually reflect hate), but replaceing the word white with the word black in that church statement on black values does not work at all.

Racism is a result of power within the society. The majority will always have power over the minority. Furthermore, as minorities black people will always have to work at preserving their community and not being assimilated. There are black communities with serious issues in teh States and they are largely the result of race and a history of oppression. So when a black church wants to help the black community I see zero problem with that. In fact, I think that is something they should be rewarded for. It is totally different from a society devoted to helping the "white (whatever that means) community".

One is helping an historically oppresed minority, the other is persecuting an historically oppresed community. Yes I realize there are poor white people too, but that's what programs directed at low income earners are for.

I think I can agree with that.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

I would think that every race/culture/ethnic group should be responsible to look after their own lives.

But when that group institutes a code for their brethern to follow, and establishes a community standard to uphold so as to improve their own lot, that race/culture/ethnic group is racist? How do they win again?

Nobody should ever depend on the government, ever.

Where has Obama or anyone from his church demanded that the government do anything for them? Oh yeah, they haven't. They're trying to get the black man to stand up for himself and improve the black community on its own merits. Damn those black men!!!

But you're right....racial supremacy is wrong BOTH ways.

And where has Obama's church claimed racial superiority? They haven't. More arm waving.

Yet I don't see the benefit in continually talking about the 60's, segregation slavery, and overall racism as if they are still in rampant use today. Yes I know black people haven't exactly had the best ride in the past century....but you could say that for a lot of other ethnic groups too. Does that make it any better? No.

Those issues are still alive today and that is where the bitterness comes from. As Obama stated in his speech, that neither you or CalgaryBornAgain have bothered to read, there have been advances made, but those advances do not equate equality and do not make up for the decades of abuses.

Personally I think Black people would do a lot better if they took initiative and began trying to fix some of the others that exist amongst their culture.

But when they try, and establish these expectations of contributing to the improvement of their own lot, they are jumped on for doing so and claimed to be racist in their own right. They can't win based on your lot.

Unlike what Rev. Wright said....the reason there are more black prisoners than white, isn't the governments fault. Its a problem that stems all the way back to how the parents are raising their kids.

It's environmental. Black kids grow up with poverty, no education, no work prospects, and ever increasing costs of living. Gee, now why would they turn to crime to survive?

I always love the middle class white kid from rural Alberta or British Columbia trying to speak to the state of the black community. It never ceases to amaze me how the people in these locales gain their insight into the plight of the black man and the ghetto life when it doesn't exist for 1000 miles in any direction. Oh, I forgot. Rap music, YouTube and MTV tell you everything you need to know about the black experience.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

And where has Obama's church claimed racial superiority? They haven't. More arm waving.

If you're not even going to watch the sermons where Rev. Wright CLEARLY talks about racial superiority....this debate is over.

Have a nice day.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Azure

If you're not even going to watch the sermons where Rev. Wright CLEARLY talks about racial superiority....this debate is over.

Have a nice day.

Link me! I'd love to see this.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Hillary's experience exposed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20...g/apxk2pxqjqgo

Outside of her healthcare initiative, Hillary's experience was having afternoon teas with visiting dignitaries. Sounds like someone ready to be President on Day One.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Link me! I'd love to see this.

It's on YouTube!!! Bill Kristol said so!!!

[HotHotHeat]

That Hillary story has some great lines.

Clinton deliberately lowered her profile after the health- care debate ended because ``she didn't want to detract'' from other health initiatives after ``things had gotten so personalized,'' Jennings said. The health-care industry attacked her plan, which critics called ``Hillarycare.''

My favorite:

At the start of her husband's second term in January 1997, schedules show her attending programs honoring the arts and humanities.

Bring on the 3 AM phone call!

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Azure

If you're not even going to watch the sermons where Rev. Wright CLEARLY talks about racial superiority....this debate is over.

As you obviously didn't bother to read and think about the whole of what Obama actually said about this, I don't see the point in your... nonsense.

Obama came out of this with flying colors, not because of his rhetorical skills, but because he had the courage to face the critisism head on and was able to formulate a cohesive and sensible answer to what was an obvious attempt at entrapment. It was supposed to be "damned if you do, damned if you don't", but Obama refused to accept that logic, that twisted idea of everyday politics that seemed to have taken a deathgrip on the chance of ever dealing with these issues.

I think this whole thing has only helped to prove that Obama is ready for presidency. He can take the right course of action, even when it's not one of the obvious ones, and he can explain his decisions in a way which can not only be understood but also accepted by those around him.

He is not ready to lead, he is a leader already. He doesn't even need the authority of presidency to do that.

[badnarik]

if obama cares about blacks he should speak out against the drug war. i read his latest speech and don't really see what the big deal is.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Link me! I'd love to see this.

I said I'm done arguing about it.

But if you really want to see them.....youtube is your friend.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Azure

I said I'm done arguing about it.

But if you really want to see them.....youtube is your friend.

Nice. I'll be sure to remember this next time you question one of my claims.