China needs to chill out. Big time.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Domer

Here is the link to the arrest of the Tibetan in calgary

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...hts-group.aspx

Domer

This story has the potential to explode. Thanks for posting.

[tjinaz]

How is it the US is brought into everything?

China is treating people poorly...

Response: yea but the US had influenced the cambodian civil war in the 70s, that is why none of the Khmer Rouge have been brought to trial.

What does that have to do with anything?

Oh and by the way... Khmer Rouge were COMMUNISTS!!! (hint - rouge is red) Supported by the Vietnamese,Chinese and Russians...The US fought against the Communists pretty much full time during the cold war. Yet people read this accept this and go on their merry way.

Originally Posted by Phanuthier
Take some time and read about the USA's role in the Cambodia civil war in the 1970's. IMO, the USA has supported the most horrific war crimes of the past 50 years.

You won't get an argument from me there. Not sure how this changes or impacts on China's actions though.

where the USA can use their veto power to keep the travesties of Cambodia from becoming official, as not a single member of the Khmer Rouge has been brought to court for their war crimes to date.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge

http://www.edwebproject.org/sideshow...ars/index.html

I swear the knee jerk anti americanism is simply amazing.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But the Chinese feel that they would lose face if they step back on any of the above mentioned things and appear to bow to external influences.

I mean, frankly their reaction to their shoddy products that went on to other nations was a joke, they picked the lowest possible scapegoat and shot him and expected the world to stop pressing them.

The Chinese have no concept of how the world works beyond their unique cultural model.

I could write a book on face when it comes to asians. It isn't logical. So don't try to think about it in a way that YOU would handle the situation.

Nobody in China knows about the protests...or so few it really doesn't matter. If the Olympics go off without a hitch and they rake in the medals (which they will) they will have saved face.

If you want a good idea how illogical "Saving Face" is.....Chiang Kai-Shek was once kidnapped by his chief advisor (coup d'tat or so). Long story later the advisor released Chiang. Both men apologised to each other for the incident and saved face with each other....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Go look it up...great head scratcher!


Saving face is all about not appearing to look weak, or inferior. You wouldn't believe the verbal, bodily and every other type of gymnastics asians will do to avoid losing face.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

How is it the US is brought into everything?

China is treating people poorly...

Response: yea but the US had influenced the cambodian civil war in the 70s, that is why none of the Khmer Rouge have been brought to trial.

It was to show China isn't the only world power to commit such acts. They've become an easy target; As western countries, we tend to think we are the saints of the world fighting the evil injustice of countries like China. In reality, we (moreso USA then Canada) commit the same injusticies that many here are accusing China of.

Cambodia is most prevalent in my eyes because I was in Phnom Penh 3 months ago. There is alot more information about the USA's support of Pol Pot in Cambodia then I could find on the internet, but here's some tidbits I could find:

http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/apr1998/plpt-a18.shtml

Equally important was the diplomatic support from the United States and other imperialist powers, which recognized the Khmer Rouge as the legitimate government of Cambodia and backed the seating of Pol Pot's representative as the Cambodian delegate to the United Nations for more than a decade. Throughout the 1980s the Reagan administration blocked international efforts to characterize the events of 1975-78 in Cambodia as genocide or to hold the Khmer Rouge leadership responsible for mass murder, since it would undercut the American alliance with Pol Pot.

There is much more information on the internet about the involvement of the USA in the rise of Pol Pot, and protecting Pol Pot after he was overthrown and went into exile. Many historical books, diaries and journals in Phnom Penh go more in detail about Nixon and Reagen and the Americans supporting Pol Pot as well.

There are a few more that I can think of that I have seen first hand experience,

• Cuba (The USA using Cuba as their drugs and prostitution resort until Cuba rebelled)
• Turkey's invading Nicosia, leaving the only undivided city in the world. (Turkey and Cyprus)
• other ones I have not seen with my own eyes, ie. Iraq?

Is China right for occupying Tibet? No. But I gotta laugh at some the cries to bring down the red dragon when there are other travesties in the world that the western world is guilty of and we have more control over changing, but do nothing. But hey, boycott China shoes and t-shifts if it empowers you.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Is China right for occupying Tibet? No. But I gotta laugh at some the cries to bring down the red dragon when there are other travesties in the world that the western world is guilty of and we have more control over changing, but do nothing. But hey, boycott China shoes and t-shifts if it empowers you.

The difference is that in the West, you can speak out against atrocities like Cambodia, whereas in China they throw you in a work camp, psychiatric prison, or just shoot you.

This is a classic straw man argument - you are implying that because we haven't denounced Western crimes, therefore we are silently condoning them. Nobody here is defending the Khmer Rouge, the fascistic Israeli settlers, Batista, the contras or any other of the Western-sponsored agents of destruction in the near (and not so near) past; thing is, it is irrelevant to the argument at hand. If I were, say, Richard Nixon, it might be appropriate to castigate me for hypocrisy, but last I checked I haven't ordered out any death squads, planned any military coups or sent my secret police to arrest troublemakers.

"The West" is not some distinct entity that can be held to account, but the Chinese government is. So is, for that matter, the American government, and certainly it is appropriate to criticize them when they indulge in so-called "realpolitik" at the expense of freedom and human rights elsewhere, but at least with the Americans, and other governments of the West, there is some accountability and hope for change.

Comparing the Americans - or worse still, we relatively (though not completely) blameless Canadians - to the Chinese directly, however, is laughable. There is a huge difference between suspect foreign policy, and the systematic slaughter and totalitarian oppression of your own people. This is a government who are the inheritors and idolators of Mao, who killed from 20 to 40 MILLION of his own people in his "Great Leap Forward" and who would happily do the same again today if they thought it would escape world attention and keep them in power indefinitely.

Let me put it to you this way - would you rather be an average citizen of the USA, or the PRC? A black American or a Tibetan? An outspoken socialist in New York, or a democratic student agitator in Beijing? The answer to that should tell you all you need to know about where your priorities should be in denouncing injustices.

[Phanuthier]

^ I can tell you right now I would have no problem in living in China, and would not be overly concerned with China vs USA. Its a strict country, yes, but I am willing to forgo some leisures from Canada to experience living in China.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

China is pretty bad, but they have taken drastic measures to clean up their environment in the past year, and have made it a top priority to clean up the pollution with the Olympics coming along. Look at the environmental science interests propping up in China, such as designs for eco-city Dongtan.

And I agree that places like Toronto, LA and San Fransisco are pretty comparable to Beijing.

They most certainly have and the changes I saw in my four years living there were dramatic to say the least. The place looks entirely different with green spaces and trees galore. Cleaned up area after area in the city though they displaced people without asking their permission to do so. The roadways were much improved. Sewage systems improved. Campaign after campaign to get the population to change bad habits such as spitting etc.

Frankly I saw nothing but a continous improvement virtually everywhere I travelled in China. And my Chinese friends were markedly happy about the changes in China. You have to contrast it with a generation that was abused during the cultural revolution. The country is a vastly different place than in times past. Changing rapidly and almost entirely for the better.

There are still vestiges of the old way of doing things but this is hardly a time for boycotting or embarrassing the Chinese.

I think they will do a fabulous job with the Oly's. They are so good at putting on large scale extravaganza's.

I wouldn't condone when they step over the line and can certainly see the benefit of holding any country accountable. But and it's a HUGE but I'd be all about encouraging the Chinese whose people are in far,far, far better shape than they were only a short time period ago.

[FlamesAddiction]

I heard a story from someone who went to China about their "environmental" efforts. They said that in one town they were in, a mountain side was completely deforested and instead of replanting the trees to get rid of the eye sore, they painted it green.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Is China right for occupying Tibet? No. But I gotta laugh at some the cries to bring down the red dragon when there are other travesties in the world that the western world is guilty of and we have more control over changing, but do nothing. But hey, boycott China shoes and t-shifts if it empowers you.

Not only that Canada and the US are starting to put legislation in place to block any M&A activity by foriegn owned corporations that are owned or operated by governments as opposed to private companies. I agree with them. We should also be doing a better job at fighting back against industrial espionage by China too. I say it's time to limit the business we do with them outright beyond cheap shoes and trinkets.


It's a relative world and this US = worse than China garbage has gone on long enough. It's easy to condemn the US, everything they do domestically and abraod is under the microscope. However our lens on China is obscured by their facist, totalitarian, government (we honestly don't even know about countless other attrocities that they sweep under the rug from foreigners and their own people). When China is free and open, then and only then can such comparisons even be made. I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Not only that Canada and the US are starting to put legislation in place to block any M&A activity by foriegn owned corporations that are owned or operated by governments as opposed to private companies. I agree with them. We should also be doing a better job at fighting back against industrial espionage by China too. I say it's time to limit the business we do with them outright beyond cheap shoes and trinkets.


It's a relative world and this US = worse than China garbage has gone on long enough. It's easy to condemn the US, everything they do domestically and abraod is under the microscope. However our lens on China is obscured by their facist, totalitarian, government (we honestly don't even know about countless other attrocities that they sweep under the rug from foreigners and their own people). When China is free and open, then and only then can such comparisons even be made. I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Heh nice. Well, fight the good fight my friend.

Me, I whole heartedly embrace new change. China, India and to lesser extents Russia and Brazil, I welcome the new change and will move along with the rolling times.

JohnnyFlame, beautiful post. That is exactly what I think as well. I know London, who has intimately worked with China on the Olympics, has been impressed and has had nothing but praise for China for putting on these Olympics as they take the symbolic stage to being a world power. From those working intimately with the Beijing Olympics, they say its going to be the best there ever has been and the best there will be for a very long time. You know its serious business when that comes out of London. JohnnyFlame is bang on, this is a country that's economy is not only growing, but their society is evolving, they are cleaning up their cities and leading the technical revolution along with India. If Dongtan goes through, it'll be the first eco-city in history - how's that for environmental concerns. 3rd world development? Major contracts were signed with African countries to exchange natural resources for financial aid (I believe, memory is weak) since China's demand for natural resource consumption is growing exponentially. Hell even tourist development, millions were pumped into Guilin alone in the previous year. Their tourism industry has exploded the past 5 years.

Boycott China? Go ahead. China's reliance on the USA economy - while still strong - is lessening, and they are becoming independent on their own. Even without the boycott, North America is likely to be left on the curb side watching India and China become the co-dominant countries of the world, with easy trade routes between the two and Russia.

Oh, by the way, China holds the majority of the USA's debt in T-bills. If the USA can pay it off, I'm sure they're gonna want their money back some day.

[JohnnyB]

Interesting little tidbit to add on here:

I just discovered that I'm blocked from accessing anything on the New York Times website related to the Tibet issue with China.

I have been living in China for almost 5 months, and during this time I've run up against the "Great Firewall" on a several-times-a-day basis, but I have never had any problems in accessing the NYTimes. Everything has always been completely open on the Times website, but now everything is open except for the stuff that deals with Tibet.

Most irritating is that I'm not even sure that I can access the articles through a proxy either, as I need to log in as a paid subscriber. Fcuk China!!
Don't take my goddamn Times!

[Option84]

Ok, it's a race riot. Not Chinese military going in and randomly shooting "peaceful monks" or whatever. Violent tibetans are rioting in the streets and burning down businesses and killing innocents. In fact most of the casualties belong to Chinese people living in that area. Get your facts straight.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Option84

Ok, it's a race riot. Not Chinese military going in and randomly shooting "peaceful monks" or whatever. Violent tibetans are rioting in the streets and burning down businesses and killing innocents. In fact most of the casualties belong to Chinese people living in that area. Get your facts straight.

Those are the "facts" according to what the Chinese are releasing. If you want to believe them that's your choice.

On a different note, I have a used car I'd like to sell ... it's like new. Interested?

Or maybe I can sell you some prime development real estate in Cessford (it's near, umm, well, it's in Alberta).

[mmanzz]

Please. Lets get the record straight:

In response to comments about the Khmer Rouge, please get your facts straight, see the link below and it is a matter of historical record that China was a direct supporter of the KR:

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=5687

Secondly, Boycotts are quite common at the Olympics and it appears that one is now being discussed for Beijing 2008:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/0...t.html?ref=rss

Please be aware that the Olympics of 1976(Canada), 1980(Russia), and 1984(US) had significant boycotts by a number of countries. In the case of 1976, Canada's Olympics were boycotted by the African nations due to a New Zealand rugby tour violating another official boycott of South Africa! Boycotts are a tool of international relations, and certainly some would say a valid alternative to more violent alternatives.

[Option84]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Those are the "facts" according to what the Chinese are releasing. If you want to believe them that's your choice.

On a different note, I have a used car I'd like to sell ... it's like new. Interested?

Or maybe I can sell you some prime development real estate in Cessford (it's near, umm, well, it's in Alberta).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/...as/china_tibet
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/wo...a/15tibet.html
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...009000,00.html

I wish people would read all the news articles and relevant information first before spewing their propagandist nonsense automatically.

Edit: Also make you READ the articles COMPLETELY and do more RESEARCH before you automatically make assumptions.

Edit: And to the original post, "peaceful protests" my ass.

[mmanzz]

To Option84, the issue is China and and the Chinese government. The Olympics are not in Tibet. Do you excuse all the actions of the CCP in this matter and recent history. If you do, well we know where you stand. If not, then what action do you propose?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Option84

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/...as/china_tibet
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/wo...a/15tibet.html

I wish people would read all the news articles and relevant information first before spewing their propagandist nonsense automatically.

Edit: Also make you READ the articles COMPLETELY and do more RESEARCH before you automatically make assumptions.

Edit: And to the original post, "peaceful protests" my ass.

Damn! I can't even read the yahoo one. The Firewall is in extreme effect right now. I had it just for a second before I got locked out, and that was on my second proxy server.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Option84

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/...as/china_tibet
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/wo...a/15tibet.html

I wish people would read all the news articles and relevant information first before spewing their propagandist nonsense automatically.

Edit: Also make you READ the articles COMPLETELY and do more RESEARCH before you automatically make assumptions.

Edit: And to the original post, "peaceful protests" my ass.

I see nothing in those reports that changes my view. Do you seriously think Buddhist monks would employ violence? Do you understand Buddhism? Average Tibetan citizens perhaps, but I seriously doubt Buddhist monks would employ violence. And where in those articles does it refer to a race riot? Where does it state that monks are engaged in violence? You state that violent Tibetans are killing innocents ... from what I read, it's the Chinese army that's killing people, not the the Tibetan protestors.

It's worth pointing out that these protests started out peaceful, but Chinese police and military were the ones to counter with force and escalate the situation.

Out of curiosity, since you recommend doing research and gathering all the relevant information before making assumptions, do you know why the the Tibetans are protesting? Are you familiar with the historical context of the situation?

[Option84]

Read one of the articles ok?

"Monks and very young men down to the age of 15-16 are smashing the Chinese shops, kicking in doors and windows, setting the shops on fire and beating the Chinese in the vicinity," the Danish daily Politiken quoted an unidentified witness as saying.

This isn't even from State controlled media, this is independent European media based on a protected source.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFY1j8qs9mk

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Option84

Read one of the articles ok?

"Monks and very young men down to the age of 15-16 are smashing the Chinese shops, kicking in doors and windows, setting the shops on fire and beating the Chinese in the vicinity," the Danish daily Politiken quoted an unidentified witness as saying.

This isn't even from State controlled media, this is independent European media based on a protected source.

According to an "unidentified witness". Yep, that's a reliable source. China has evicted all media and other foreigners from Tibet. Getting an account of what's going on that isn't controlled and censored by China right now is impossible. But go ahead and believe everything the media tells you. If it has been verified by "unidentified witnesses" then it must be true. I'll opt to apply a little bit more critical thinking to the matter.

Edit: I read both articles. I just don't get the same story from them that you do.