How do we overcome voter apathy?

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I would say "educated" are people who have done their due diligence before voting, thats why I prompted the idea of a simple 5-10 questionair on the ballots that you would want a reasonable voter to know.

If you limit voting to only people who meet a certain arbitrary standard, then you don't have a democracy. You have oligarchy.

More disturbing to me is the idea that you'll only "care" if an issue affects you directly. What about ethics? What about morality? Aren't these issues that affect you even when you're not directly in the line of fire, so to speak?

What about the war in Afghanistan? Since you're not there, and it doesn't affect you, can you say that you "don't care"?

Democracy only works if its citizens stand up to those who amass power to themselves. If Henry David Thoreau had thought as you do, he would never have penned "On Civil Disobedience" and if Harriet Beecher Stowe had used the "it doesn't affect me so I don't care" logic, she would never have written "Uncle Tom's Cabin." John Brown would never have led the raid at Harpers Ferry, etc. etc. The U.S. might still have slavery.

What if the government decided to allow indentured servitude for immigrants? Or allow muslim communities to practice sharia law and execute women accused of adultery by stoning? Does that "not affect you?"

That's nonsense. It affects you. If you don't want to vote, don't. But don't pretend you're doing a public service because you're "not informed." It's a false dilemma--obviously you should both get informed AND vote.

But if it's too much work for you, or you think you'd be just as happy living in the U.S. (laugh--you don't know how good you have it) then by all means do what you want. Part of the right to vote is the right not to.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Mickey76

What did me in when it comes to voting was the last federal election. My brother and grandparents both owned income trusts. So I voted for the Conservatives because they weren't going to tax them ...

See now, from this statement, you have not done your homework. Income trusts have always been taxed. That is not what the Conservatives said.

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

Originally Posted by redforever

Well, it is my opinion that while some of that might have been true in the past, both federally and provincially, not much of that is true anymore, times are changing and everyone is asked to be accountable, you and I, our financial institutions, big business, politics, there is a demand for accountablity now.

Lots of politicians, executives of major companies etc are now either in jail or headed to jail for their misuse of funds, power, whatever.

And it is my opinion that most politicians are honorable people, the vast majority. At least I prefer to look at it that way. I think it is yet another cop out to say, oh they are all corrupt, and things wont change anyhow.

It is up to YOU to make politicians accountable. Yes, they should be accountable automatically, but some are not, that is part of the human failing. If you do not exercise YOUR powers to make them accountable, then all of the things that you are concerned about will continue. If everyone takes the mindset that I can do nothing, leave it up to the next guy, then how do you ever expect to see change?

And here is some earth shattering news. Change usually takes time, lots of time, especially at the national level. But you know what? When the citizens get fed up, change comes quickly.

You sound fed up. Why aren't you exercising YOUR POWERS to force changes? Yeah right, we should do all your work for you and you will just sit there and say, I am not inspired, nothing will change anyhow, they are all corrupt and it will go on forever.

Maybe when voter apathy becomes low enough, then the leader of our country/province will realize that change needs to be made? I'm not asking you to do my "work" for me either. Until average Joe becomes a leader for the province there will be problems and BS in the system. And that will only last a few years until average Joe becomes corrupt and blind as well. Like you said it's part of human failing. a never ending battle. I'm not trying to upset anybody, but this just wears on me. I'll vote for a Federal election every time. And I have no real problem with the way the PC's have handled things in Alberta. I knew they'd win again, so I didn't bother voting. Low and behold they won!

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Salt Water Cowboy #10

Maybe when voter apathy becomes low enough, then the leader of our country/province will realize that change needs to be made? I'm not asking you to do my "work" for me either. Until average Joe becomes a leader for the province there will be problems and BS in the system. And that will only last a few years until average Joe becomes corrupt and blind as well. Like you said it's part of human failing. a never ending battle. I'm not trying to upset anybody, but this just wears on me. I'll vote for a Federal election every time. And I have no real problem with the way the PC's have handled things in Alberta. I knew they'd win again, so I didn't bother voting. Low and behold they won!

No, on the contrary. When voter apathy becomes that low, you will be living in a dictatorship. And at that point, you will have little chance for change.

Change has to come from the electorate. It is the responsibility of the electorate to ensure those representing you remain honorable people. If voter turnout decreases and decreases and decreases while as you say, political corruptness increases proportionally, then those in power will think that the electorate is ok with the decisions they have been making and the laws they have been passing.

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

Originally Posted by redforever

No, on the contrary. When voter apathy becomes that low, you will be living in a dictatorship. And at that point, you will have little chance for change.

Change has to come from the electorate. It is the responsibility of the electorate to ensure those representing you remain honorable people. If voter turnout decreases and decreases and decreases while as you say, political corruptness increases proportionally, then those in power will think that the electorate is ok with the decisions they have been making and the laws they have been passing.

didn't say that buddy.

so you're saying we almost live in a dictatorship? see i can do it too...

you made your point. now I'll leave, this horse has been beaten.

[Burninator]

Meh I'm not really sold on the whole "you gotta vote" argument. Democracy is not about responsibility, being informed, duty or any of that. Democracy is about freedom. Perhaps voting is a way of ensuring that freedom, maybe, maybe not. If people stop voting are we going to turn into Nigeria? Very doubtful. Personally I don't get mad at someone if they don't vote, that's their choice. Freedom is about choice. Not voting is a choice. Forcing people to vote is undemocratic. I'm growing more against protest voting. Voting for the lesser of 2,3,4 evils. Why should I have to settle and still cast a vote for evil? If none of the candidates satisfactorily fit my views why should I support them? Our Democracy is not eroding away.

Do I think our government will be better if more people vote? Absolutely. Sound hypocritical of me? Hold on. In theory if you have more people voting it will make the candidates work harder to get elected. Think capitalism for the government. The more people you have to sell your product to the stiffer the competition will be, forcing you to offer a better product or risk getting run out of business. That applies to our democratic elections as well. More voting will lead to better candidates, better policies, better promises kept and more accountability. Still after all that, do I support someones decision not to vote? Absolutely. Democracy is about freedom and freedom is about choices. Not voting is a choice. If that choice is removed, either through laws, social stigma or other means, then we aren't free anymore.

[Burninator]

Why do I think we have voter apathy? I'm sure a big reason is that lots of people don't follow politics, are not informed about their choices and therefore feel no need to vote. Another reason is because people feel their vote is wasted. For the most part PC dominates Alberta. When you go in and vote you can be almost guaranteed that your vote for Liberal, NDP, WAP, Green is going to lose. Heck even voting for PC is a waste. Your vote doesn't really matter when your party is winning by a margin of 5 to 1. Another reason is because people don't feel anyone is worth their vote. Lots of people in this thread have stated that there isn't a candidate that fits their views well enough, so they don't vote.

So how do we solve this? Well I don't have an answer as to how get people interested in politics. I don't think there is a simple answer for that. As to how to get people feel like their vote is wasted is a tough one as well. Unless we switch to a more proportional representation it will be very tough to overcome this problem. Our system guarantees that most peoples go no where. Incompetent candidates is almost impossible to solve from the outside. Like I posted in my previous post the one solution to fix all these problems is more people voting. And that's a catch-22 to make Joseph Heller ecstatic. I'm not sure if there is a fix. The quality of life here is so good that is little reason for people to complain. Don't get me wrong I think there is plenty room for improvement. But until times are tough people are almost spoiled by prosperity.

[flamey_mcflame]

I voted, but I dont get why people get so righteous when someone doesn't vote. Maybe it gives one a sense of superiority. My only worry is that a vote isn't truly representative of the total electorate. You see young ridings downtown with 30 percent turnout and you see larger turnouts in the older rural ridings. But what are you gonna do. I guess if you wanted to mandate voting, you could fine people $20 if they don't, like in Australia. I can't say we'll see that happening anytime soon. So, I guess you live with it.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Meh I'm not really sold on the whole "you gotta vote" argument. Democracy is not about responsibility, being informed, duty or any of that. Democracy is about freedom. Perhaps voting is a way of ensuring that freedom, maybe, maybe not. If people stop voting are we going to turn into Nigeria? Very doubtful. Personally I don't get mad at someone if they don't vote, that's their choice. Freedom is about choice. Not voting is a choice. Forcing people to vote is undemocratic. I'm growing more against protest voting. Voting for the lesser of 2,3,4 evils. Why should I have to settle and still cast a vote for evil? If none of the candidates satisfactorily fit my views why should I support them? Our Democracy is not eroding away.

Exactly. I see above that IFF tried convincing me in political science history, but that is all greek to me. I have no idea what he said in half his post and would probably have to wikipedia it.

Seriously, I've never felt like we're in a dictatorship more then this thread - YOU HAVE TO VOTE! WE'LL SEND YOU TO NIGERIA! WE'LL TURN EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T VOTE INTO LAB RATS! I mean seriously. Its not like I'm telling people not to vote, I'm just giving me reasons for why I don't vote. I'm not contaminating their votes, I'm not trying to sway their opinion. But now I'm told that I have to follow politics, choose a party to align myself to, and feel guilty for other people going to war? C'mon. Don't pull that Afghanistan stuff on me, are you in Afghanistan? If not, then I don't know why you are. I have 2 friends who are going to be deployed into Afghanistan in the next the next year as field operations - some of the most dangourous work in Afghanistan - and they don't ever try and get on me for being a patriot, must vote, et al like this thread. I find it very odd that so there are so many people here that keep saying I should vote because we send good men and women to Afghanistan, but the ones I know going to Afghanistan never bring it up. Very odd.

Is the issue right now between picking a voting for democracy? Are ethics and morals at the forfront for this running? If not, why am I getting these threats about losing it? Seriously, I don't equate skipping voting for periods that I don't choose to vote as losing my freedom forever.

If you view voting as a opportunity cost, you can see why I don't vote by a classical prisoners dilemma as follows:

Cost of being knowledgeable to form an opinion to vote : time x ($/time)
Cost of $$ spend in other forms that I may otherwise have had influence in how its spent: (taxed income) x (chance that money is taken away from favourable interests) x (chance money is given to interests that I am not favourable) x (max potential change for loss in favourable interests) x (max potential change in gains for favourable interests) x (chance that my chose party will win, chance that the party I do not want to see in party will win)

One can easily see that if a voter has little to no vested interests in the issues brought up in this election, that dominant strategy that will prevail is not to vote. One can also see that if an issue does concern them more, that they will vote based upon game theory.

And that should be what democracy is about. If you want to have input, you should have the ability to have input. If you don't have input, then you should not be forced into giving input.

By simple game theory, it can be shown that the dominant strategy for me to vote as there is a larger.

IFF - I plan on moving to the USA because it fits my career path better. I see no point in the last line of you post as you have no idea what weighs into what values I have.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Exactly. I see above that IFF tried convincing me in political science history, but that is all greek to me. I have no idea what he said in half his post and would probably have to wikipedia it.

Seriously, I've never felt like we're in a dictatorship more then this thread - YOU HAVE TO VOTE! WE'LL SEND YOU TO NIGERIA! WE'LL TURN EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T VOTE INTO LAB RATS! I mean seriously. Its not like I'm telling people not to vote, I'm just giving me reasons for why I don't vote. I'm not contaminating their votes, I'm not trying to sway their opinion. But now I'm told that I have to follow politics, choose a party to align myself to, and feel guilty for other people going to war? C'mon. Don't pull that Afghanistan stuff on me, are you in Afghanistan? If not, then I don't know why you are. I have 2 friends who are going to be deployed into Afghanistan in the next the next year as field operations - some of the most dangourous work in Afghanistan - and they don't ever try and get on me for being a patriot, must vote, et al like this thread. I find it very odd that so there are so many people here that keep saying I should vote because we send good men and women to Afghanistan, but the ones I know going to Afghanistan never bring it up. Very odd.

Is the issue right now between picking a voting for democracy? Are ethics and morals at the forfront for this running? If not, why am I getting these threats about losing it? Seriously, I don't equate skipping voting for periods that I don't choose to vote as losing my freedom forever.

If you view voting as a opportunity cost, you can see why I don't vote by a classical prisoners dilemma as follows:

Cost of being knowledgeable to form an opinion to vote : time x ($/time)
Cost of $$ spend in other forms that I may otherwise have had influence in how its spent: (taxed income) x (chance that money is taken away from favourable interests) x (chance money is given to interests that I am not favourable) x (max potential change for loss in favourable interests) x (max potential change in gains for favourable interests) x (chance that my chose party will win, chance that the party I do not want to see in party will win)

One can easily see that if a voter has no vested interests in the issues brought up in this election, that dominant strategy that will prevail is not to vote. One can also see that if an issue does concern them more, that they will vote based upon game theory.

By simple game theory, it can be shown that the dominant strategy for me to vote as there is a larger

I appreciate your post, you took a lot of effort throughout the thread.

All I have to say is I feel people like you are a big problem in this world. You don;'t care about anything unless it bites you in the a**. If more people just cared about the world they live in and what other people are going through and some of the problems that might not effect you are having on other people, this world would be a much better place.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Don't pull that Afghanistan stuff on me, are you in Afghanistan? If not, then I don't know why you are. I have 2 friends who are going to be deployed into Afghanistan in the next the next year as field operations - some of the most dangourous work in Afghanistan - and they don't ever try and get on me for being a patriot, must vote, et al like this thread. I find it very odd that so there are so many people here that keep saying I should vote because we send good men and women to Afghanistan, but the ones I know going to Afghanistan never bring it up. Very odd.
.

But that doesn't mean the point isn't valid. Men risk their lives around the world so that others can get the right to vote. Speaks volumes for how important it is when you don't have it.

That's the point being made.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

All I have to say is I feel people like you are a big problem in this world. You don;'t care about anything unless it bites you in the a**. If more people just cared about the world they live in and what other people are going through and some of the problems that might not effect you are having on other people, this world would be a much better place.

And how do you know that my vote would be for the betterment for the world? What if my beliefs were purely Darwinistic? (is that a word?)

Do you seriously think whether I decide to vote or not in a provincial election is going to change the world? God I should have voted in the students union university elections, student clubs elections, technical society elections, community elections, etc.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

But that doesn't mean the point isn't valid. Men risk their lives around the world so that others can get the right to vote. Speaks volumes for how important it is when you don't have it.

And funny, when I brought this up with them and my opinion, they said "fair enough, everyone has their own values."

Don't you find it odd that some, such as yourself, beat this drum so hard when the ones actually in the trenches are less opinionated in the matter? Or am I just alone in this?

I mean seriously, I worked for the military in the past year - though my life wasn't on the line, I've probably been more involved with the military (mostly relationship wise) then most people telling me what the military sacrifice. Of the 5 or so CF officiers I stay in regular contact with, 2 of them off to Afghanistan, none of the 5 are doing it to "bring voting rights to Afghanistan" and I don't think thats what they see value in either. Some do it for patriotism, some like playing with explosives, some doing it to pay off education debt. I should also note that the field engineer off to Afghanistan didn't vote either.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

And how do you know that my vote would be for the betterment for the world? What if my beliefs were purely Darwinistic? (is that a word?)

Do you seriously think whether I decide to vote or not in a provincial election is going to change the world? God I should have voted in the students union university elections, student clubs elections, technical society elections, community elections, etc.

You just don't get it do you. Quit thinking about yourself and just your vote. That is the problem, 60% of the population say, meh, it's just one vote, not going to change anything.

I really hope that one day, your not voting, comes to bite you in the a**, all of the people that didn't vote for that matter.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Don't you find it odd that some, such as yourself, beat this drum so hard when the ones actually in the trenches are less opinionated in the matter? Or am I just alone in this?

My grandfather from my dads side of the family fought in WW1 and spent time in a German POW camp. As a wee lad he often told me his reasons for fighting, and that was to preserve our freedom and democracy. I'm pretty sure he'd be rolling in his grave if he read some of the comments here on why people didn't vote.

Then there's one of my uncles whose best friend fought in WW11 for much the same reason. He has always told me the importance of voting and why we have that right today.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

You just don't get it do you. Quit thinking about yourself and just your vote. That is the problem, 60% of the population say, meh, it's just one vote, not going to change anything.

I really hope that one day, your not voting, comes to bite you in the a**, all of the people that didn't vote for that matter.

Well if that is the case, the 60% that don't vote would get bitten in the ass, and when you have a majority that gets hurt, the whole society will suffer meaning the other 40% will get hurt as well.

And isn't me voting thinking about myself? I mean, I'm voting based upon my values, right?

I can honestly tell you that any thing that I have ever had vested interest in, I have always held a leadership position. Be it a sports team, a club, representing sizes from 10 people to 2000 people, if I have a vested interest, I take upon a leadership position. If the case comes to the point that I get the proverbial "bite in the ass" I will likely find a way to actively ensure my issues are satisfied properly, likely in a leadership role. I tend to let people go about their business and let people do their job as I'm not about to micro-manage every part of my life. Right now, provincial political elections where the Conservatives win some 70% and I have little to no vested interest in the issues by key players does not inspire me to go out and put my 1 vote. Otherwise, I work around the confines of what I'm given and make the best of the situation I'm in.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

And funny, when I brought this up with them and my opinion, they said "fair enough, everyone has their own values."

Don't you find it odd that some, such as yourself, beat this drum so hard when the ones actually in the trenches are less opinionated in the matter? Or am I just alone in this?
.

I'm sure you understand that the sample of people that you know in the military isn't stastically significant in the least.

Now do I think that everyone or even most people in the military are fighting so others can vote?

No. That would be naiive. As you said, there are all sorts of reasons why people join up.

But that wasn't my point. People die fighting in conflicts to bring democracy to countries. That may not be their personal reason for being there, but it's one of the core reasons why the conflict itself is even happening.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Well if that is the case, the 60% that don't vote would get bitten in the ass, and when you have a majority that gets hurt, the whole society will suffer meaning the other 40% will get hurt as well.

And isn't me voting thinking about myself? I mean, I'm voting based upon my values, right?

It is everyone and everything. Your family, kids, parents, grandparents, jobs, the environment. A lot of people vote to help give others a say such as the homeless, the elderly and students.

It appears that all you do is think about yourself.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

It is everyone and everything. Your family, kids, parents, grandparents, jobs, the environment. A lot of people vote to help give others a say such as the homeless, the elderly and students.

It appears that all you do is think about yourself.

I have no kids, my parents usually don't vote provincially (despite growing up in a communist country), my grandparents are all dead, I don't plan on getting a job here (man I would look stupid if I'm still here in a year) and I'm environmentalist enough to have a taken on government policies with regards to the environment. I don't support the homeless (see other thread), Canada has one of the best programs for the elderly which is not being threatened, and I personally think we are fortuate to be giving children free, quality education. Under pretty much every situation other then war, my family, friends and I would all survive ok and be able to work with the situation were given and still do ok.

Please don't try to even know me when you say all I do is think about myself. What did you do for Christmas day this year? Give and recieve gifts from family and friends? I was out giving boxes of food to starving children in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, some who were victims of land mines on a war that was supported by the USA (not sure if Canada had any influence on that war too). Rather then work in a summer job making money, I wanted to go to Ghana to volunteer my skills to build cities there but the funding fell through. I only mention this to show you your ignorance at the matter of trying to draw conclusions on peoples lives on whether they vote on provincial elections. I don't do it for a pat on the back, I was one of hundreds who wanted to go under that given program. So, don't. Have you ever tried volunteering your services to a 3rd world country before? Don't judge me if you don't know me... ok?

The thing is, 1 vote in a provincial leverage does not seem to warrant my time given my current circumstances. When there comes a time that I do have vested interests on issues being brought up, I feel that I can bring enough leverage to do what I think needs to be done. However, I don't micromanage my time to vote in issues that I have no vested interest in. I let those who do have vested interest to vote. If I did have to vote on that, I'd have to vote in 9 elections in the past month, all of which you could argue affect my life - the least of which is the provincial election.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I have no kids, my parents usually don't vote provincially (despite growing up in a communist country), my grandparents are all dead, I don't plan on getting a job here (man I would look stupid if I'm still here in a year) and I'm environmentalist enough to have a taken on government policies with regards to the environment. I don't support the homeless (see other thread), Canada has one of the best programs for the elderly which is not being threatened, and I personally think we are fortuate to be giving children free, quality education. Under pretty much every situation other then war, my family, friends and I would all survive ok and be able to work with the situation were given and still do ok.

Please don't try to even know me when you say all I do is think about myself. What did you do for Christmas day this year? Give and recieve gifts from family and friends? I was out giving boxes of food to starving children in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, some who were victims of land mines on a war that was supported by the USA (not sure if Canada had any influence on that war too). Rather then work in a summer job making money, I wanted to go to Ghana to volunteer my skills to build cities there but the funding fell through. Have you ever tried volunteering your services to a 3rd world country before? Don't judge me if you don't know me... ok?

This post will be followed up tomorrow but to answer the bolded question I was working, keeping the country safe for your family so they can have a joyfull Christmas.

As for volunteer service, I do my fair share here in Canada.