Who did you vote for? - Official Election Results Thread

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

In all honesty, I'm a born and raised Calgarian, and I've been taught pretty much my entire life to be so anti-liberal that even the thought of voting for them provincially (no matter how different they may be from the feds) conjures up visions of the NEP and my dad coming home one day wondering if we were going to lose our house that month.
.

That image wasn't exclusive to just people in Alberta unfortunately. Trust me, the average middle-class person in the rest of the country was not enjoying the highlife because of the NEP. The country was in a severe energy crisis because of international events outside of our control. The NEP may not have been fair to Albertans who were pretty much living in a bubble at the time, but it was a serious life line to people in the east and in remote areas. I get the impression that many native Albertans think that the NEP was designed so that easterns could profit from Alberta, when in fact, it was just meant to be a temporary way for the country as a whole to hold its head above water until the crisis subsided.

It's easy to point to the Liberals when it comes to the NEP, but I do think the federal Conservatives would have done something similar. The fact that Brian Mulroney kept the NEP until it was time for him to start worrying about the next election says a lot about the necessity of it at the time.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Universal health care works for all; private healthcare works for some. It is a matter of managing the capacity and budget issues that are the primary concern.

I never said it didn't work....just that the two-tier system works better.

And I'm not talking about a system where you can choose between public or private care, but where the government can send you to a private clinic, like they do in the UK, if you need special treatment. Just about all the countries you mentioned before have a system like that....and their people seem more satisfied with that system than Canadians do with ours.

Don't you think its a better idea to have those clinics here in Canada, rather than our government sending patients to the US because we're not formally allowed to have private clinics here?

As for the American system....its messed up. And throwing more money at it isn't going to solve anything. There was an article posted on one of the links Lanny provided about a system that would actually end up 'saving' 1 trillion dollars over the next 10 years if implemented.

The problem is, all the candidates are only supporting certain fractions of that system....and its not universal either. Well not in a general sense...although it would make sure everyone is covered.

I find it hard to believe that the US government could set up universal health care for 300 million people without screwing up something.

[Ozy_Flame]

I'm curious to find out exactly why so many people under the age of 50 are incredibly anti-Liberal, as some people around here are (and CP is probably mostly uner 50). Tron admitted that it was practically beat into him when he was growing up that the Liberals created such chaos through stuff like the NEP, was anyone else raised like this? Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just keen to know the effect it's had on younger generations.

I grew up in a conservative household, but never have I associated early 80's federal politics with modern-day centrist provincial politics.

I should hope what happened 25 years ago is not the be-all, end-all for political choice in this country, especially with a generation now removed from that entire incident.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I think that "grasping at straws" about describes where the Liberals are at today. Last night was their best shot at making an impact in two decades, and they absolutely blew it.

But we were lead to believe that the liberal media made the whole story up about people being ready for change I thought. So the liberal media wasn't making it up and they blew it or they didn't blow it because there was no story there, which is it?

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'm curious to find out exactly why so many people under the age of 50 are incredibly anti-Liberal, as some people around here are (and CP is probably mostly uner 50). Tron admitted that it was practically beat into him when he was growing up that the Liberals created such chaos through stuff like the NEP, was anyone else raised like this? Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just keen to know the effect it's had on younger generations.

I grew up in a conservative household, but never have I associated early 80's federal politics with modern-day centrist provincial politics.

I should hope what happened 25 years ago is not the be-all, end-all for political choice in this country, especially with a generation now removed from that entire incident.

It's been said a couple times in this thread already. My Daddy syndrome.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I should hope what happened 25 years ago is not the be-all, end-all for political choice in this country, especially with a generation now removed from that entire incident.

Don't you mean "be-all, end-all for political choice in this province"? The Liberals are still extremely popular in Eastern Canada.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'm curious to find out exactly why so many people under the age of 50 are incredibly anti-Liberal, as some people around here are (and CP is probably mostly uner 50). Tron admitted that it was practically beat into him when he was growing up that the Liberals created such chaos through stuff like the NEP, was anyone else raised like this? Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just keen to know the effect it's had on younger generations.

I grew up in a conservative household, but never have I associated early 80's federal politics with modern-day centrist provincial politics.

I should hope what happened 25 years ago is not the be-all, end-all for political choice in this country, especially with a generation now removed from that entire incident.

I honestly don't think many young people here are anti-Liberal - it's just they are anti-ineffective-Liberal which is what we have in Alberta.

Give people a legitimate option and see what happens.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'm curious to find out exactly why so many people under the age of 50 are incredibly anti-Liberal, as some people around here are (and CP is probably mostly uner 50). Tron admitted that it was practically beat into him when he was growing up that the Liberals created such chaos through stuff like the NEP, was anyone else raised like this? Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just keen to know the effect it's had on younger generations.

I should hope what happened 25 years ago is not the be-all, end-all for political choice in this country, especially with a generation now removed from that entire incident.

For why I am anti-Liberal is pretty simple I don't agree with any of their positions (if the Alberta Liberals have any position other than the PC's are bad.) I am fiscally and socially conservative. From a background perspective it probably doesn't make sense considering my parents are left wing leaning, I lived overseas while in Junior High and attended a Swiss boarding school. Not exactly the red neck upbringing that I tend to get accused of when people hear my political views.

Honestly I never heard much about the NEP growing up so that didn't play a role at all in my dislike of the Liberals.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by Flame On

It's been said a couple times in this thread already. My Daddy syndrome.

What are you getting at? That my daddy said I shouldn't think, showed me how to think, therefore I can't think?

That comment comes off pretty condescending don't you think?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Azure

And I'm not talking about a system where you can choose between public or private care, but where the government can send you to a private clinic, like they do in the UK, if you need special treatment. Just about all the countries you mentioned before have a system like that....and their people seem more satisfied with that system than Canadians do with ours.

Azure, I think the reason why a two-tier system exists is because of capacity issues. If everyone suddenly had a revelation, became more health-conscious, and started exercising on a regular basis, or there was some breakthrough in medical technology, then maybe we wouldn't have to resort to private clinics. There are there simply for capacity issues in the public system. A fluid, well-funded public channel of health care with little litigation and minimal wait times would probably result in a low demand for private doctors.

Private clinics aren't evil by any means, and I don't want to come across like that; they provide options to ease the burden on a stressed system. However, they are not a pre-requisite for an ideal healthcare system; such universal health care can be provided all publicly if administered and funded correctly.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'm curious to find out exactly why so many people under the age of 50 are incredibly anti-Liberal, as some people around here are (and CP is probably mostly uner 50). Tron admitted that it was practically beat into him when he was growing up that the Liberals created such chaos through stuff like the NEP, was anyone else raised like this? Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just keen to know the effect it's had on younger generations.

I grew up in a conservative household, but never have I associated early 80's federal politics with modern-day centrist provincial politics.

I should hope what happened 25 years ago is not the be-all, end-all for political choice in this country, especially with a generation now removed from that entire incident.

For those who are not immigrants to Alberta, the demographic of anyone under 50 comes in two flavours: Those that lived through the NEP, and those whos parents lived through the NEP. Either they experienced it themselves, or they saw the aftermath of it in their parents lives and livelihoods. So, even though we are nearing 30 years since its implementation, anyone old enough to vote has experience with the aftermath of the NEP.

Of course, the federal Liberals have done nothing at all to atone for that mistake in the years since. Rather, they've often found ways to continue to insult this province, and the city of Calgary especially. Off the top of my head...
- Folding CFB Calgary into CFB Edmonton at a cost of over $1 billion to prop up Landslide Annie.
- Chretien's absolute disdain for Alberta, as evidenced by not even bothering to campaign in this province, and his statements to the same effect.
- Double standard on implementation of Kyoto. i.e.: Auto manufacturers (Ontario) given certain credits to allow them to continue to polluting with no consideration to the Oil patch (Alberta, Saskatchewan)
- Martin's musings about changing equalization because look! Alberta is raking it in and Ontario and Quebec are whining!
- Refusal to appoint Alberta's elected senators, and then going one step further and appointing Liberals in a Liberal dominated Senate to represent a conservative province.

As a result, federal Liberal fortunes in this province is what they deserve: zero seats.

Provincially, the party suffers from the blowback of this, but also, I can't think of any one of these situations where Taft, or any previous leader of the party stood up and spoke out against the federal party in support of the voice of Albertans.

And that is the biggest problem for me. I am very unlikely to ever vote Liberal federally because the federal Liberals have repeatedly shown that myself, my friends and my family mean nothing to them. Their Canada does not include me except where necessary, and considers me a second class citizen when they have to include me.

But when I look at Kevin Taft today, and Nicol, MacBeth and Mitchell before him, and the party composition as a whole, I do not see an organization that would stand up to the feds if they targetted Alberta again.

Show me a party with a spine - one that will stand up for Alberta - a party with new ideas and a party that will go out and tell me why I should vote for them, not why I should vote against the government, and I'll consider it. Until that time, I'm far more likely to move further right when I become disaffected with the current government than I am to move left.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

What are you getting at? That my daddy said I shouldn't think, showed me how to think, therefore I can't think?

That comment comes off pretty condescending don't you think?

You said in 2 different posts that the mere IDEA of voting Liberal made you sick, even though the PCs nearly cost you your family business.

And you said these ideas were ingrained in you by you family.

Maybe it is condescending, but is it wrong?

(Edit: not trying to be a jerk. Just pointing out how it looks like a straight line from point A to point B)

[Aeneas]

Originally Posted by Flame On

Do you know some average albertans that have not been educated, do not require health care and do not like going to the odd movie?
Starting with health and education seems pretty reasonable to me...

You don't see the correlation between more staff as well as staff retention, and better service? Gee if i have more hospital staff then maybe i won't sit here bleeding out because they can get to me faster.
Yes if school numbers are doing well then are numbers a factor? But with health care we've all heard of the waiting lists and waiting room times, that's directly related to staff numbers.

Yikes, that's really stretching what I posted! I did not post that the people who voted for and supported the Liberals have been educated, have used health care or like to see a movie, I said he thanked interest groups first that consist of educators, health care workers, and arts groups. I go to see a movie once and a while does that mean I fit into Taft's idea of an arts group? No not really. I also said that those he thanked first and prominently, and the average Albertan are not one and the same. So to answer your question:
No.

I have nothing specific against Taft, I just thought it odd that he would thank what I consider interest groups first and foremost. Not liking his speech does not mean I am against health care and education.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

For those who are not immigrants to Alberta, the demographic of anyone under 50 comes in two flavours: Those that lived through the NEP, and those whos parents lived through the NEP. Either they experienced it themselves, or they saw the aftermath of it in their parents lives and livelihoods. So, even though we are nearing 30 years since its implementation, anyone old enough to vote has experience with the aftermath of the NEP.

The Conservatives already had a stangle hold on Alberta even back before the NEP. If this was the 11th straight Conservative government in Alberta, there must have already been several straight Conservative governments leading up to the NEP... therefore, I don't see how the NEP is what turns Albertans off of the Liberals. There has to be a deeper, underlying cause.

Personally, like I said earlier, I think it's partly cultural. The early settlers that moved to Alberta tended to be people who wanted to be away from centralized government, religious settlers, and big business tycoons. Over generations, I think this has instilled conservatism as a cultural component.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Provincially, the party suffers from the blowback of this, but also, I can't think of any one of these situations where Taft, or any previous leader of the party stood up and spoke out against the federal party in support of the voice of Albertans.

But when I look at Kevin Taft today, and Nicol, MacBeth and Mitchell before him, and the party composition as a whole, I do not see an organization that would stand up to the feds if they targetted Alberta again.

You could, however, conversely look at it as a silent retreat from the federal political realm. Why would the provincial party have to verbally express themselves as such? I agree it would do the party a favor to flat out say they are NOT associated with the federal Liberals, but they haven't exactly said anything that would condone Chretien, Martin, and Dion either. Sometimes groups distance themselves by just not mentioning others at all, and perhaps this is how the Alberta Libs are going about it.

That said too, would you not be equally upset if the PC's didn't speak out against Mulroney's Airbus affair or other such scandals? The federal PC's have been more friendly with Western Canada than the Libs, but they aren't exactly virginal either.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flame On

But we were lead to believe that the liberal media made the whole story up about people being ready for change I thought. So the liberal media wasn't making it up and they blew it or they didn't blow it because there was no story there, which is it?

Why are you asking me?

I don't represent the liberal media.

But, read the threads on this forum. Hell, look at the poll in this very thread.

Were the conservatives going to get dumped? Not a chance. But there are enough people frustrated with the Stelmach Tories that a chance to make gains was there. Problem is, nobody stepped up to the plate.

The end result is the Liberals and NDP have their seat totals halved, the NDP is no longer an official party in the Legislature, and the WAP is wiped out entirely.

Wanting change is one thing. Providing an alternative is another. The Liberals have failed to show they can be an alternative.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'm curious to find out exactly why so many people under the age of 50 are incredibly anti-Liberal, as some people around here are (and CP is probably mostly uner 50). Tron admitted that it was practically beat into him when he was growing up that the Liberals created such chaos through stuff like the NEP, was anyone else raised like this? Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just keen to know the effect it's had on younger generations.

I grew up in a conservative household, but never have I associated early 80's federal politics with modern-day centrist provincial politics.

I should hope what happened 25 years ago is not the be-all, end-all for political choice in this country, especially with a generation now removed from that entire incident.

I will say that in a lot of respects, I am dyed in the wool conservatives, and I come from a split household. My parents were both conservatives, 2 of my sisters are fanatical Liberals and always have been, my other sister in non political.

We were always encouraged to figure things out on our own, and we had some pretty incredible and heated political arguments.

Frankly, I was 13 when the NEP came into play and destroyed my parents business that they had sweated over and stressed over for years after my dad had given up a high paying job to follow his dream of running his own show. He bought my mom on board to to help him run it, and suddenly the NEP came on board and destroyed any kind of business environment in our province. Overnight, my parents had to sell the house to pay off their debts and got next to nothing for it, we lost our car, we went from above average middle class to dirt farmers in the span of a year.

My next thorn was when I served in the military and watched budget cut after budget cut as we transported around in 20 year old vehicles that were held together by bailing wire and bubble gum, went out on training excercises that were cut short due to budget issues, and watched as my friends and myself deployed on UN missions where were were dangerously under equipted for, all the while we were paid worse then a guy flipping burgers at MacDonalds.

I've watched the hypocrisy of the Federal Liberals for years, and I'm sure that all of their interesting policies and vendettas towards Alberta have been discussed.

But at this point it probably wouldn't matter if they changed their platform, got a western leader etc. I wouldn't trust them and would probably never vote for them.

Provincially, I have voted Liberal before, last night I didn't vote for any of the major party, but again nothing that the Liberals have said or promised provincially resonates with me, in order for them to gain my trust, they have to distance themselves from the Federal Liberals, and they have to distance themselves from their hardcore Liberal platform and become more of a middle party.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

You said in 2 different posts that the mere IDEA of voting Liberal made you sick, even though the PCs nearly cost you your family business.

And you said these ideas were ingrained in you by you family.

Maybe it is condescending, but is it wrong?

(Edit: not trying to be a jerk. Just pointing out how it looks like a straight line from point A to point B)

Indeed.
Captain Crunch earlier stated how his parents were injured by the federal Liberals and as such could never conceive of voting Liberal. That's my daddy syndrome even if it is understandable.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

You could, however, conversely look at it as a silent retreat from the federal political realm. Why would the provincial party have to verbally express themselves as such? I agree it would do the party a favor to flat out say they are NOT associated with the federal Liberals, but they haven't exactly said anything that would condone Chretien, Martin, and Dion either. Sometimes groups distance themselves by just not mentioning others at all, and perhaps this is how the Alberta Libs are going about it.

When this province needs effective leadership, and a voice for it's people, the Grits are nowhere to be found. The thing about silent retreat is that nobody notices you. That's rather the problem for the Liberals, isn't it?

That said too, would you not be equally upset if the PC's didn't speak out against Mulroney's Airbus affair or other such scandals? The federal PC's have been more friendly with Western Canada than the Libs, but they aren't exactly virginal either.

Undoubtably, however those scandals weren't tied to attacking Alberta's position, were they? That's the same reason why I didn't mention the APEC mess, Shawinigate or the fact that Martin's shipping company flies another nation's flags to dodge Canadian taxes.

Also, the Conservatives are the incumbant. Anyone with a base understanding of politics knows that if you want to unseat the incumbant, one of two things generally has to happen: they have to fail spectacularly, or you have to become an undeniable alternative.

[corporatejay]

I dislike the liberals because provincially they don't really stand for anything.

I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative. During Paul Martin's last term I voted liberal in the federal election because at the time Stephan Harper's Cons were anti-gay marriage and I just felt I couldn't vote for a party that had such a rigid stance against a social issue. This is the only time I've voted "left".

in the last election they changed their tune to "well the SCC has ruled and the law is the law" meaning they were going to leave gay marriage alone. I then switched my vote back to the Conservatives.

I have mentioned in this thread many times, if Jim Dinning were to start his own party and even if it was to the left of the PCs, I would vote for them, heck i'd probably volunteer on his campaign. I was staunchly against Ted Morton as I found him far too socially conservative.

Give me options, and I'll switch my vote, but until a legitimate alternative comes up, I will be PC.