post-secoundary education

[8 Ball]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

And I have all the respect in the world for someone who "works his balls off" for his family, children, and for a sense of accomplishment. I don't like it though, when tradespeople who are in their vocation through laziness or addiction tear down on the acedemics and claim they don't deserve a fair wage just because they're not doing physical labour.

Which is where my coke-head rig-pig comment came from. In retrospect it was a little over the top, so I apologize.

But I do certainly stand by the spirit of my post, if not the asthetics.

I don't see any tradespeople whining about academics making a fair wage. Tradespeople just don't like being classified as idiots or drug abusers because they chose a different profession.

[jamesteterenko]

Originally Posted by KAI

"On March 26, 2008 we will be presenting both the President of the University of Calgary and the administration in the Political Science Department with our petition. The petition’s meaning is two fold: First, it is a representation to the administration at the University of Calgary, that we the students do not want to lose a great Professor like Dr. Dube. Second, it is a show of support for the sessional Professors at the University of Calgary and a recognition that there needs to be change regarding their employment conditions."

The petition is to raise awareness of this issue. The solution is the next step, right now the University needs to realize that this is a problem especially if they want to attract new qualified instructors

Raising awareness and showing support should be secondary for a petition. A petition should be a request. The dictionary definition that I assume when I see this is, "a formal written request made to an official person or organized body". Maybe they just used the wrong word. However, with a little effort, they could have reworded this to make a request.

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Seems pretty clear to me, and I didn't need a university education to see it:



Maybe you need to take some refresher courses, before defending some dinosaurs (who probably don't even know how to use a computer) that just happen to have the power to manipulate the education and lives of 20,000 students.

As the article says (quite clearly), Dr. Henderson was an advocate of the students. A student's teacher. The kind every student wants to have. And of course they're the first to go when the cronies in charge get their panties in a bunch.

I am not sure where you are getting that quote of the SAA resolution. I can't find it when I search the main page, the important info page, nor the petition signup page itself. I'll admit I didn't read all the pages of the website, but I shouldn't have to read an entire web site to find the actual request being made. I also didn't read all of the articles. The petition doesn't even mention Dr. Henderson.

On the flip side, I do not mean to defend the administration. I do not know enough of the situation to have a position that I can defend. I am just saying that this is really poorly done petition.

I get that Dube is a good teacher and the students don't want him to leave. Given the information provided, I agree with that position. They don't provide any suggestions for what could be done to keep him. When I see one side of an argument put together so poorly, I usually suspect that the presented position is uninformed and probably wrong.

[KAI]

I would like to thank everyone who signed the petition. At the very least it will stimulate some discussion, and that is never a bad thing.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by 8 Ball

I don't see any tradespeople whining about academics making a fair wage. Tradespeople just don't like being classified as idiots or drug abusers because they chose a different profession.

Again I apologize for making too broad a generalization. It was inspired by a radio news call-in show I listened to about four years ago.

The debate was the teacher's strike, and a cliche "hammerswinger" calls in a rips this poor lady a new one. How dare they demand more money for a gig where they don't even "have to sweat" and get two months off in the summer among other stupid topics.

Basically he made a total ass of himself, and is to this day probably still going through life teaching his kids the only way through life is off "the sweat of your brow" or some bull like that.

Its one thing to CHOOSE a trade because you're passionate about it and enjoy the work and feel fulfilled.

The guy who called into that radio show was obviously too stupid or self-indulgent to make it any other way. Just because he couldn't or most likely wouldn't use his brain.

The old saying goes "find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life." What most people forget about is the insane amounts of hard work, discipline and self-sacrifice it takes to make that job happen and make it work.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by jamesteterenko

I am not sure where you are getting that quote of the SAA resolution. I can't find it when I search the main page, the important info page, nor the petition signup page itself. I'll admit I didn't read all the pages of the website, but I shouldn't have to read an entire web site to find the actual request being made.

They don't provide any suggestions for what could be done to keep him. When I see one side of an argument put together so poorly, I usually suspect that the presented position is uninformed and probably wrong.

Fair enough.

[Coach]

Ya I've heard of this before. My Chem teacher in high school was a PHD that used to work at the U of C but because of this junk she had to leave and makes more dough teaching high school.

[Clarkey]

If you choose a career path you damn well better figure out what you're going to get paid down the line and decide if that's enough. You can't float by the seat of your pants into a career and then bitch about the pay, do some research before.

While we're on the topic of professors--get rid of the tenure system! Who deserves employment for life?

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

While we're on the topic of professors--get rid of the tenure system! Who deserves employment for life?

It's meant to ensure that profs have the freedom to research and publish on any area of their field they wish. No tenure could lead to controlling the free thought that universities are meant to promote.

I have no problem with tenure. But make it very difficult to obtain (most universities it is) and have certain provisions - minimum publishing, classroom performance, etc...

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

While we're on the topic of professors--get rid of the tenure system! Who deserves employment for life?

Also, they want to make sure they can publish opinions that may not be very popular. Ted Morton and the Calgary School for example have some pretty politically incorrect things to say about Native relations. The argument could be made that if they were in jeopardy of losing their jobs, they may not want to publish unpopular opinions.

Also, it gives professors from the same institution the opportunity to openly criticize their colleagues if need be. While it might be unpopular they don't have to worry that this person has "powerful friends" or may in fact be the Dean and thus lose their job.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

People really go through 5-10 years learning every little nuance about a position and then gripe when they arrrive and it is exactly as advertised?

Sorry. No sympathy.

[flame3132]

Everything is about money these does.

[KAI]

You don't have to have symathy to want these teachers to be paid more. It's about the quality of post secoundary education. If the instructors aren't paid well then the quality of teaching will go down. It is important for Albertains to get a high quality education and that starts with the instructors.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by KAI

You don't have to have symathy to want these teachers to be paid more. It's about the quality of post secoundary education. If the instructors aren't paid well then the quality of teaching will go down. It is important for Albertains to get a high quality education and that starts with the instructors.

Well, thats what collage is typically for. A university is a primarily research institute, not to bring in the worlds best teachers. I think it sucks for a teacher if they are getting paid low and its great that they are good at doing something in addition to their job, but their No 1 job is to be a researcher and less so an educator.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Well, thats what collage is typically for. A university is a primarily research institute, not to bring in the worlds best teachers. I think it sucks for a teacher if they are getting paid low and its great that they are good at doing something in addition to their job, but their No 1 job is to be a researcher and less so an educator.

If Universities were there "primarily" to do world-class research, two things would happen. First, 75% of Universities would instantly fold, recognizing that an attempt to compete with the larger endowments and reputations of top-flight universities is pointless. Second, the remaining universities would stop hiring so many people (sessional instructors, graduate students, visiting assistant professors, lecturers, etc.) whose ONLY job is teaching.

In fact, a close examination of Universities reveals a dirty little secret they don't like to talk about: teaching is the most important thing they do. The reason they don't like to talk about it is that many Universities don't do it very well--but that's another story. Universities would not and could not exist were it not for undergraduate teaching.

The fact is, there are many people in academia whose only job is teaching undergraduates. Many of them are much better at it than some of their better compensated colleagues. Universities exploit those people, offering wages that in no way approach adequately compensating them for how talented and qualified they are. These are non-tenure-track faculty: many are PhDs, but not all. Many have substantial research credits to their names but are in the position they're in because of the perpetual job crunch in academia. They make up a HUGE portion of the teaching staff at a university--don't kid yourself. Without them, Universities literally could not run their day-to-day operations.

At the other end of the spectrum, many people in academia are only paid to do research. They are post-doctoral researchers: also PhDs, also often brilliant and talented--and also shamefully underpaid.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by fotze

Ya, I never knew that a University's primary job is research although that would explain a lot.

It would explain the entire undergraduate engineering curriculum at the U of C, if I'm not mistaken.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Sorry, I still don't buy it.

This is an itty bitty spec in the overall picture of 'quality education'.

If there really are 500 sessional instructors then there is obviosuly no shortage of people willing to make and extra 6 or 12 k a year in a part time gig.

If some of them would like to become full time instructors and can't get the job, who's fault is that?

Heck if it's really about quality education it might be better to have experts who spend most of their time doing and teach on the side then teachers who never actually do anything.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Sorry, I still don't buy it.

This is an itty bitty spec in the overall picture of 'quality education'.

If there really are 500 sessional instructors then there is obviosuly no shortage of people willing to make and extra 6 or 12 k a year in a part time gig.

If some of them would like to become full time instructors and can't get the job, who's fault is that?

Heck if it's really about quality education it might be better to have experts who spend most of their time doing and teach on the side then teachers who never actually do anything.

I won't speak for or to the petition. I literally know nothing about it. But here's my opinion.

1. Universities depend on good teaching.
2. Many University teachers are not good teachers.
3. What makes a good researcher does not make a good teacher.
4. If Universities want to attract and retain quality teachers they should pay them appropriately. In teaching as in anything else, you get what you pay for.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I won't speak for or to the petition. I literally know nothing about it. But here's my opinion.

1. Universities depend on good teaching.
2. Many University teachers are not good teachers.
3. What makes a good researcher does not make a good teacher.
4. If Universities want to attract and retain quality teachers they should pay them appropriately. In teaching as in anything else, you get what you pay for.

Teachers don't bring in revenues though or prestige. World Class researchers do.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Teachers don't bring in revenues though or prestige. World Class researchers do.

Interesting point. However, I feel compelled to point out that tuition and government funds make up the lion's share of University revenues at public schools in Canada.

Researchers generally bring in money to fund their own research, not for the operational costs of the University. A full professor who funds his/her research with their own grant is actually a net loss for the University because the school foots the bill for the operational costs of the building, pays him/her to teach classes (usually only one every other semester) and takes on the administrative costs associated with the payroll of a big lab. Not insignificant.

As for prestige--I agree. And I'm not minimizing the function of research--it's important. But to focus on revenues and prestige at the expense of undergraduate teaching is to put the cart before the horse IMO. If research is the most important thing at a University, why not simply shut down these costly undergraduate programs and turn Universities into research institutes? Because all of this research and the acquisition of knowledge is pointless if it isn't being passed on in some form to the next generation of scholars, who can apply their newly acquired knowledge in the real world.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

I was speaking directly to the petition. What you say makes sense to an extent, but I'm not convinced

A) there have not always been part time instructors
B) there a part time instructor cannot be a good instructor
C) 6000 is not enough to attract a decent part time instructor
D) the petitioners would themselves be willing to float any of the costs or have given any thought to where the funding should come from

I don't think it's about a better education system at all.