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Old 02-19-2008, 09:14 AM   #41
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Democrats should win. Even Saint Obama might be able to pull it off. It's set up for them for sure.
Historically, Democrats have found ways to lose elections, even when a win seems tailor-made. I think the GOP is in big trouble--right now. The election is months away, and lots can change.
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Old 02-19-2008, 09:18 AM   #42
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I tend to agree with you here Vulcan. Anyone think that a Clinton/Obama (or vice-versa) ticket can beat McCain/Romney?
No matter who the won the Republican candidacy it is going to be more than an uphill battle to defeat the Democrats. Many things have to go McCain's way in order to have a chance to win, and if so he might be able to squeek out a win.

That evidence was was more than shown in the last Congress/Senate elections IMO.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:20 AM   #43
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I say Republicans in a tight, tight race. McCain is looking strong for moderates and independents. He just needs a more conservative or evangelical VP to shore up the Republican coalition.

Republicans will show up in droves just to avoid a Clinton or Obama presidency anyway.

I'm also starting to agree with Cowperson regarding Obama's wishy washy or non-existent stance on many issues. This guy might just be another Jimmy Carter.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:13 AM   #44
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I say Republicans in a tight, tight race. McCain is looking strong for moderates and independents. He just needs a more conservative or evangelical VP to shore up the Republican coalition.

Republicans will show up in droves just to avoid a Clinton or Obama presidency anyway.

I'm also starting to agree with Cowperson regarding Obama's wishy washy or non-existent stance on many issues. This guy might just be another Jimmy Carter.
Oh boy, are you in for a surprise. If Obama gets the nod from the Dems, Republicans, even the hardcore, will vote for him in droves. Some of the hardcore Republicans might hold the party line, but others are already getting ready to jump ship. They won't vote for Clinton, but they will vote for Obama over McCain.

You're going to have to get a lot more specific on where Obama is wishy washy on issues, and then show where the opponents are so solid in their approach. That whole argument is lame when you consider just how much of an impact that congress and the senate have on instituting any sort of policy on any given issue. Right now, I'm more concerned about the dufus that thinks they are going to get elected and then institute a 13 page policy document to fix any problem that faces the country. Having a framework of fresh ideas, and having the ability to bring people together, is the most important thing any leader can have in the Unted States at the moment. America is only going to solve her problems through cooperative efforts, internally and externally.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:21 AM   #45
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Oh boy, are you in for a surprise. If Obama gets the nod from the Dems, Republicans, even the hardcore, will vote for him in droves. Some of the hardcore Republicans might hold the party line, but others are already getting ready to jump ship. They won't vote for Clinton, but they will vote for Obama over McCain.

You're going to have to get a lot more specific on where Obama is wishy washy on issues, and then show where the opponents are so solid in their approach. That whole argument is lame when you consider just how much of an impact that congress and the senate have on instituting any sort of policy on any given issue. Right now, I'm more concerned about the dufus that thinks they are going to get elected and then institute a 13 page policy document to fix any problem that faces the country. Having a framework of fresh ideas, and having the ability to bring people together, is the most important thing any leader can have in the Unted States at the moment. America is only going to solve her problems through cooperative efforts, internally and externally.
Well, I'm certainly not going to be in for a surprise if I take your word on it.

Republicans turned out in droves to vote for McCain. If the main problem with McCain among Republicans is his left-leaning stance on certain issues, such as the environment, why the heck would Republicans, "even the hardcore," move to the much more left-wing Obama? He (Obama) was voted the most liberal senator this past year. So that makes absolutely no sense. The party faithful will fall in line and vote for the guy that best represents their interests, not throw it away on an unknown like Obama.

McCain's centre stance also helps him capture those moderates. He has a unique stance to start fighting for and winning on key Democrat issues by using a market friendly and conservative spin. That always wins with Americans.

Where is Obama's fresh ideas? He mirrors Clinton on every major issue except for his foreign policy, which honestly borders on sheer lunacy. Intervene in Pakistan? Okay...

Vision and pragmatism is what America needs, not a switch over to left-wing policies. Although I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that anyway. The last thing America needs at this stage is more government.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:55 AM   #46
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Can someone explain to me why Washington State is voting again today? I thought they held their primaries a couple weeks ago...I'm actually sure of it.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:18 PM   #47
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Can someone explain to me why Washington State is voting again today? I thought they held their primaries a couple weeks ago...I'm actually sure of it.
I could be wrong, but I believe that in Washington State, the Democrats ignore the results of the primaries and instead divide all of the delegates based on caucuses. These caucuses have already been held earlier this month. As to why the Dems hold primaries despite all the delegates already being divided... I have no idea; I'll leave that for someone else to answer.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:34 PM   #48
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Well, I'm certainly not going to be in for a surprise if I take your word on it.

Republicans turned out in droves to vote for McCain. If the main problem with McCain among Republicans is his left-leaning stance on certain issues, such as the environment, why the heck would Republicans, "even the hardcore," move to the much more left-wing Obama? He (Obama) was voted the most liberal senator this past year. So that makes absolutely no sense. The party faithful will fall in line and vote for the guy that best represents their interests, not throw it away on an unknown like Obama.

McCain's centre stance also helps him capture those moderates. He has a unique stance to start fighting for and winning on key Democrat issues by using a market friendly and conservative spin. That always wins with Americans.

Where is Obama's fresh ideas? He mirrors Clinton on every major issue except for his foreign policy, which honestly borders on sheer lunacy. Intervene in Pakistan? Okay...

Vision and pragmatism is what America needs, not a switch over to left-wing policies. Although I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that anyway. The last thing America needs at this stage is more government.

I think you're vastly underestimating McCain's appeal to independents--and underestimating Obama's. As I said before, it's a long time between now and November, but I would guess that more independents have voted for Obama in open primaries than have voted for McCain. McCain has squandered a lot of his support among independents by pandering to the Republican base over the past 3 years and because of his stance on Iraq.

I'm also confused by the fact that when people criticize Obama, they both say that he's too radical and that he lacks fresh ideas. How can both be true?
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Old 02-19-2008, 03:31 PM   #49
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Well, I'm certainly not going to be in for a surprise if I take your word on it.
Well, if you're thinking that McCain is the favorite at this juncture, you're in for a surprise.

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Republicans turned out in droves to vote for McCain. If the main problem with McCain among Republicans is his left-leaning stance on certain issues, such as the environment, why the heck would Republicans, "even the hardcore," move to the much more left-wing Obama?
Uh no, Republican numbers are way down in the primaries. Democrats have seen massive increases, up to 400% in some states, but the Republicans are well behind the 2000 numbers, the last fully contested election. You are also aware that McCain has barely carried the popular vote in the Republican primaries? Because of the ridiculous "winner tale all" primary system the GOP uses, McCain has the nomination all but sewn up, while not having more than a simple majority of his OWN party members.

Now why would the Republicans vote for Obama rather than McCain? One word. Integrity. Obama still has his intact while McCain bent himself over to the Bush Administration over the past eight years. The whole McCain meltdown in South Carolina, and his change in political tactics over the past eight years has made him very unpopular. His stance on immigration has killed him with the hardcore Republicans. There is little trust for McCain. Now I know this because I live in John McCain's home state, and I work for the most Republican of entities outside of the RNC. When I hear people that still stand by Bush swear up and down that they will never vote for McCain, unless he is up against Hillary, its a pretty good indicator of things to come.

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McCain's centre stance also helps him capture those moderates. He has a unique stance to start fighting for and winning on key Democrat issues by using a market friendly and conservative spin. That always wins with Americans.
Too bad that independents are flocking like crazy to Obama. They're donating money in record amounts. But no, they're going to vote for McCain, for reasons unkown.

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Where is Obama's fresh ideas? He mirrors Clinton on every major issue except for his foreign policy, which honestly borders on sheer lunacy. Intervene in Pakistan? Okay...
Hey, you wanted fresh! And its lunacy to actually go into the country WHERE the terrorists are and do the job that Bush promised in the first place? Uh huh. Also, does Obama mirror Hilliary, or Hilliary mirror Obama, or both mirror the position of the Democratic party? As I have repeatedly pointed out, and it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, candidates don't formalize any position on anything until they get the nod from their party.

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Vision and pragmatism is what America needs, not a switch over to left-wing policies. Although I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that anyway. The last thing America needs at this stage is more government.
"Left-wing" policies? Where do you get that? There is no left-wing in the United States. The fact that you don't recognize that, right off the bat, shows me your educators are failing you. The linear political spectrum is supposed to be diverse and have balance by representation at both ends. The political spectrum in America has been completely ripped to shreds by BS politics over the past 60 years. McCarthyism removed both Communism and Socialism from the left. That left the liberal perspective, that of the founding fathers, as the extreme left end of the spectrum. Meanwhile, the right just kept on sliding further and further to the right. Barry Goldwater was considered a fringe rightwing whacko in the 60's, and now HIS views are considered centerist, more identifiable with the Democrats than the Republicans, who couldn't trust him in 1964. What does that say about the shift that has taken place?

I want to know where Obama has suggested that there is going to be MORE government? You are aware that the biggest governments in American history were under the watches of Reagan and Bush? I don't know how it could be possible for Obama to create more government that Bush did. The layers and secrecy that he built in his time in office has been a joke. For a party that supposedly espouses the desire for "small government" they sure do spend an awful lot of time building new and wonderful agencies and manning them to the hilt. This is just another example of the text book saying one thing, and the reality saying the other.

What the United States needs right now is someone who is going to make government more effective. They need someone who can get the Feds and the States working in concert to do things, not at odds with each other. There's too much gridlock and that has to change. Obama is not tied to the machine which means he has a chance to think outside that box. McCain is driving the machine, which is why he can't be trusted this time around.
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Old 02-19-2008, 04:01 PM   #50
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Clinton tries to start "Yes we will" chant, fails. This is kinda painful.

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Old 02-19-2008, 04:08 PM   #51
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Clinton tries to start "Yes we will" chant, fails. This is kinda painful.
Am I the only one that cannot stand Clintons voice?
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Old 02-19-2008, 04:51 PM   #52
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Am I the only one that cannot stand Clintons voice?
No You're Not!
No You're Not!
No You're Not!
No You're Not!
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Old 02-19-2008, 07:43 PM   #53
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Obama wins Wisconsin!
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Old 02-19-2008, 08:41 PM   #54
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Clinton's speech tonight doesn't seem very inspiring. Seems very down on losing Wisconsin by a fair degree.

Losing the vote with all demographics in that state except voters over 60 I think.

Couple that with what will likely be 10 wins in a row, growing percentage of the vote in all demographics for Obama, and Obama drawing even or even ahead in Texas polls and it doesn't look like she's stopping the train anytime soon.
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Old 02-19-2008, 09:30 PM   #55
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My perfect scenario is that Hillary wins now because she supports universal health care (Obama only wants to strengthen the health insurance system) and also Bill holds a lot of experience, friends, and goodwill across the world. If Hillary loses the democratic selection, I doubt she will be able to win again in 8 more years, much less run. However, if Hillary wins two terms now, Obama will still be young and still more experienced and he will still have a large chance of running and being elected also. That's the only reason why I would prefer Hillary to win because it's the best scenario to get both.

Hillary won't win the selection process however, becase she simply cannot compete with Obama's eloquence and inherent charisma.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:03 PM   #56
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I updated the OP.

Obama winning Wisconsin by 17%.

Obama now winning by 60 delegates.
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:53 AM   #57
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Obama carries Hawaii!

10 in a row!
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:14 AM   #58
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Obama was expected to win in both places, but it's getting hard for the Clintons to argue that he doesn't have momentum now. He's apparently making inroads into Hillary's base. She could be in trouble.

What worries me is that the Clintons are "ends justify the means" types, and they're showing signs that they're going to go down slinging mud. So much for "beat the Republicans" solidarity. If the Dems were smart at all, they'd instruct their Superdelegates to vote for the leader. If this drags on and IF Clinton keeps trying to change the subject with phony allegations of plagiarism and so on, then this could get ugly. The upshot of that is that neither candidate will win in November. I for one hope they smarten up. This is their best shot at the White House in almost forever.
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Old 02-20-2008, 05:53 AM   #59
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I thought Clinton was supposed to take Wisconsin? Predominantly white with a big core of union members sounds like Clinton's base. The only thing I had read about Obama having any hope in Wisconsin was its proximity to Illinois. Glad to see two more convincing outcomes. I hope the Clinton's realize the situation and do what is best for the party, but I fear their egos will get the best of them. Bill is going to destroy his legacy trying to support Hilliary, and that will just be another reason to see Obama cary through. I'm hoping America is tired of Rove-ian politics.
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:24 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hack&Lube View Post
My perfect scenario is that Hillary wins now because she supports universal health care (Obama only wants to strengthen the health insurance system) and also Bill holds a lot of experience, friends, and goodwill across the world. If Hillary loses the democratic selection, I doubt she will be able to win again in 8 more years, much less run. However, if Hillary wins two terms now, Obama will still be young and still more experienced and he will still have a large chance of running and being elected also. That's the only reason why I would prefer Hillary to win because it's the best scenario to get both.

Hillary won't win the selection process however, becase she simply cannot compete with Obama's eloquence and inherent charisma.
As we move along, likely sooner rather than later, you're going to see more of this type of column coming up:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?nav=hcmodule

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