Cap, there's a difference between 'portrayed' and 'villified.'
Any mention of Arabs in a negative light, whether shown prominently or simply as a passing under the breath is still villification. There are so many films and TV shows out there, I'm sure there's more than we think.
That's such BS. If you made the effort you could make a huge list that showed the villification of Western white people.
That's such BS. If you made the effort you could make a huge list that showed the villification of Western white people.
I'm not sure that we're talking anything but apples and oranges.
for the most part the movies and T.V. shows really villified anything beyond the individual. They didn't really perpetrate group wise stereotypes, but focuses on the villian for villians sake.
As an example, you bought up the movie the Seige, which actually was a movie that I did enjoy.
In it the United States government and in particular the Army, and CIA were the villians. The Arabs were after thoughts and it made it very clear in that movie that they were separate from Muslims in general. They also did a great deal to justify the actions of the minor (Muslim) villian who was screwed over by the CIA.
They also made sure that one of the hero's was Muslim, and not a bumbling side kick.
For the most part, those movies and T.V. shows went out of their way to portray their villians as villians, and not the overall country or religion of origin as the target of our hate.
Again, the villians were a interchangible script device, they had to be something, as pointed out in the Sum of All Fears.
Does it point to generating hateful feelings, or create a desire to promote genocide, no its more an effect of lazy script writing.
Hell, even the Clint Eastwood movie Letters from Iwo Jima, made sure that they promoted the Japanese nobility even though in actuallity Japanese conduct especially by their officer corp during WWII was less then sterling.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
I'm not sure that we're talking anything but apples and oranges.
for the most part the movies and T.V. shows really villified anything beyond the individual. They didn't really perpetrate group wise stereotypes, but focuses on the villian for villians sake.
As an example, you bought up the movie the Seige, which actually was a movie that I did enjoy.
In it the United States government and in particular the Army, and CIA were the villians. The Arabs were after thoughts and it made it very clear in that movie that they were separate from Muslims in general. They also did a great deal to justify the actions of the minor (Muslim) villian who was screwed over by the CIA.
They also made sure that one of the hero's was Muslim, and not a bumbling side kick.
For the most part, those movies and T.V. shows went out of their way to portray their villians as villians, and not the overall country or religion of origin as the target of our hate.
Again, the villians were a interchangible script device, they had to be something, as pointed out in the Sum of All Fears.
Does it point to generating hateful feelings, or create a desire to promote genocide, no its more an effect of lazy script writing.
Hell, even the Clint Eastwood movie Letters from Iwo Jima, made sure that they promoted the Japanese nobility even though in actuallity Japanese conduct especially by their officer corp during WWII was less then sterling.
Yeah, I don't think this is directed at me, but I agree with you. In most cases, in our pluralistic democracy, we make precise attempts to NOT be intolerant. Sometimes, we are, but not expressively hateful.
As well, there is an effort to separate stereotyping from satire. Even lame movies like Team America made it pretty clear they were talking about the whackjobs that strap themselves up with ball bearings and plastic explosives and go people hunting in supermarkets.
The Hamas stuff is totalitarian hatred. I'm going to guess this is the ONLY children's program allowed in whatever battered piece of territory that Hamas controls.
Even more movies out there that do the same. Some movies include:
The Song of Love
A Cafe in Cairo
The Sheik
The Son of Sheik
Black Sunday
The Desert Bride
Lawrence of Arabia
Sleeper Cell
Kingdom of Heaven
Back to the Future
G.I. Jane
Iron Eagle
Operation Condor
The Siege
True Lies
Executive Decision
Patriot Games
Rules of Engagement
And if I really have to breakout it out - Team America: World Police, which, while popular upon release, is now considered a cult classic in 21st century film.
And, according to Jack Shaheen's 2001 book Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Villifies a People, he credits over 900 films since the turn of the 20th century that villify Arabs.
But there is a changing light on the subject, that I defintiely admit - and it's for the better.
And here's an excellent article for the changing image of Arab (and Muslim) characters.
I'm not going to defend Hollywood's portrayal of Muslims in the months after 9/11--except to say that if you compare it to a portrayal of the Japanese during WWII, or the Vietnamese during Vietnam, or Walt Disney's portrayal of African Americans up through the 1980s, etc. etc.... you'll agree that Western society has come a long way since then. Are there questionable portrayals? Absolutely. But as a whole, mass culture in North America is interested in controversy and debate, and that shows in their portrayal of, for instance, the War on Terror in any number of police procedurals in recent years. The trend is toward dialogue on the issue, even if the portrayals are occasionally questionable.
What Hamas is doing is quite different. There's no interest in dialogue, merely an interest in indoctrinating children with their hatred to perpetuate a cycle of violence that borders on the nihilistic. There's no trend toward dialogue, just propaganda that teaches young people to accept the voice of authority and to demonize the enemy. And it's evil. I think peter12 is right that we need to make sure we draw a clear line in the sand between pluralism and relativism. One is good--the other is very, very bad.
I'm not going to defend Hollywood's portrayal of Muslims in the months after 9/11--except to say that if you compare it to a portrayal of the Japanese during WWII, or the Vietnamese during Vietnam, or Walt Disney's portrayal of African Americans up through the 1980s, etc. etc.... you'll agree that Western society has come a long way since then. Are there questionable portrayals? Absolutely. But as a whole, mass culture in North America is interested in controversy and debate, and that shows in their portrayal of, for instance, the War on Terror in any number of police procedurals in recent years. The trend is toward dialogue on the issue, even if the portrayals are occasionally questionable.
What Hamas is doing is quite different. There's no interest in dialogue, merely an interest in indoctrinating children with their hatred to perpetuate a cycle of violence that borders on the nihilistic. There's no trend toward dialogue, just propaganda that teaches young people to accept the voice of authority and to demonize the enemy. And it's evil. I think peter12 is right that we need to make sure we draw a clear line in the sand between pluralism and relativism. One is good--the other is very, very bad.
It's totally true. There comes a time when you have to stand up and say unapologetically, "I think that's evil and I intend to put a stop to it."
It's a hard thing to do and really easy thing to get wrong, but it's something we as a society need to be dedicated to practicing. Not in a preachy sense, but in cases like this, we need to make it very clear that by taking out the presence of debate and dialogue, ESPECIALLY when children are involved, is absolutely vile.
We didn't do it in the 1930s, when voices from Germany were crying out for help, and we had to fight the most horrific struggle that human beings have ever taken part in.
I'm not saying this is an Islamic problem or an Arab problem or a religious problem. It's a people problem. It can happen anywhere when a society decides that competing interests simply don't matter and replace it with an empty nihilism bent on destruction.
What Hamas is doing is quite different. There's no interest in dialogue, merely an interest in indoctrinating children with their hatred to perpetuate a cycle of violence that borders on the nihilistic. There's no trend toward dialogue, just propaganda that teaches young people to accept the voice of authority and to demonize the enemy. And it's evil. I think peter12 is right that we need to make sure we draw a clear line in the sand between pluralism and relativism. One is good--the other is very, very bad.
I really encourage you to watch the Popeye episode "You're a Sap, Mr. Jap". It's pretty easy to see that, like Hamas, the producers have just thrown plot, dialogue, and dececy to the wayside just to get a message across.
All I'm saying is that Hamas is not the only party guilty of this, although they have been doing it in more recent times.
I really encourage you to watch the Popeye episode "You're a Sap, Mr. Jap". It's pretty easy to see that, like Hamas, the producers have just thrown plot, dialogue, and dececy to the wayside just to get a message across.
All I'm saying is that Hamas is not the only party guilty of this, although they have been doing it in more recent times.
I really encourage you to watch the Popeye episode "You're a Sap, Mr. Jap". It's pretty easy to see that, like Hamas, the producers have just thrown plot, dialogue, and dececy to the wayside just to get a message across.
All I'm saying is that Hamas is not the only party guilty of this, although they have been doing it in more recent times.
This is still a far too relative position to take. I've seen the mentioned cartoon and a few other Loonie Tune ones where Bugs Bunny kills Japanese soldiers who resemble chimpanzees. Yeah, it's pretty grotesque. It's still not the same. There wasn't the attempt to mass-indoctrinate the population or provide such a single minded view of their Japanese enemies.
Seriously, I'm just totally confounded how you keep on with your argument that "everyone party is guilty of this". It really boils down to everyone is more or less the same. How do you equate liberal democracy to say the Nazis?
The proper term is indoctrination. We do the exact same thing in our culture and have for years. It starts in cartoons and goes into education. We're no different, except that we are a lot more subtle in our approach and much more institutionalized.
Seriously, I'm just totally confounded how you keep on with your argument that "everyone party is guilty of this". It really boils down to everyone is more or less the same. How do you equate liberal democracy to say the Nazis?
And I'm confounded how you keep considering this 'relative', whatever that means in this context, and not drawing parallels along the same lines with what I've been arguing.
Propoganda is propoganda, or do I have to spell it out for you again?
Hamas happens to be more overt with their production, but the message is clear - kill Jews. Just like Popeye, who brought down an entire Japanese battleship, with an over-the-top level of arrogance at the end when the burning wreck is 'flushed down the toilet'.
Unbelievable you can't buy that arguement. Simply unbelievable.
I have got to say though, that this is pretty mild in comparison to a Bunny inviting children to kill and eat Jews.
Infact, I'd say that they are worlds apart. To me, the cartoon was more of a knee jerk reaction to the betrayel that Americans felt after being attacked, uncontested, by a former Ally.
The proper term is indoctrination. We do the exact same thing in our culture and have for years. It starts in cartoons and goes into education. We're no different, except that we are a lot more subtle in our approach and much more institutionalized.
In terms of culture, that's not really unique. Of course, specific culture develops according to geographic and human needs.
But to morally equate all this stuff as simple "indoctrination" is just pathetic and as the last responses have shown, it is not capable of being adequately defended.
It boils down to when do you draw that line between a free society and tyranny. A lot of people here are incapable of making that distinction.
I find it sad that the girl, who's obviously educated, has that much hatred in her. There is something directly wrong with Hammas, they're doing this to the detriment of the people that they're suppossed to serve.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
