Obama will be assassinated if he wins...

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Indirectly through the appointment of SC judges does the president have control. 4 republican adminstrations stretching ~24 years and nothing has been done during that time since Roe vs. Wade.

When have the Republicans controlled the White house for 24 straight years? It's not like you can force a Supreme Court judge to retire. Also it's not like you can read their minds either. They may appear to be an originalist but, behave differently once behind the bench. There are two right now due to retire and will in this next election cycle. They probably would of by now but, have held out for a change of office.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

How is Roe v. Wade NOT an interpretation of the Constitution? How would striking Roe v. Wade NOT infringe upon the individual rights and freedoms of women across the country? Unbelievable.

"Forget it. It's like talking to a wall."

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

C
* Oswald was not a competant shooter and would have had to got off three perfect shots, with a poorly manufactured bolt action rifle in less than 6 seconds. That at a moving target.

Actually when Oswald was a marine he qualified with the M1 Garand his first test score in I think 1956 he shot a 212 which was a couple of points over sharpshooter rating. In 1959 he shot a 191 on a different range which qualified him as a marksman. Now the m1 was a semi automatic, but the feeling with most shooters is that its easier to be accurate with a bolt action rifle because it forces you to settle down between shots. And the three aimed shots in 6 seconds is very possible.

While Lee Harvey Oswald was a sub par Marine, he was a well qualified shooter.

As an add on the reason why the story floats around that Oswald was a sub par shooter was because his practice scores were terrible, but his actuals or qualification scores were very good.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The film and the story don't match. To put it simply, they say he got shot from behind, but the film sure looks like it didn't come from behind him.

Are you referring to his head motion?

This is also for Lanny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62gvoKyODu4

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Actually when Oswald was a marine he qualified with the M1 Garand his first test score in I think 1956 he shot a 212 which was a couple of points over sharpshooter rating. In 1959 he shot a 191 on a different range which qualified him as a marksman. Now the m1 was a semi automatic, but the feeling with most shooters is that its easier to be accurate with a bolt action rifle because it forces you to settle down between shots. And the three aimed shots in 6 seconds is very possible.

While Lee Harvey Oswald was a sub par Marine, he was a well qualified shooter.

As an add on the reason why the story floats around that Oswald was a sub par shooter was because his practice scores were terrible, but his actuals or qualification scores were very good.

Cool information Captain. We'd you dig that up. I've never read that before, not that I'm much of a Kennedy Assassination buff. What I have read does contradict that. A summary of his record indicates he wasn't very good at all and barely qualified.

"Lee Oswald" attended boot camp in San Diego, waking up at 5 am for
classes, exercise drills, and training with M-1 rifles. Cadet Sherman
Cooley recalled that Oswald had a great deal of difficulty qualifying
with his weapon, a distinction that earned him the unofficial rank of
"bird." "It was a disgrace not to qualify," Cooley said, "and we gave
him holy hell" (175).

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.m-dr.html

Originally Posted by Burninator

Are you referring to his head motion?

This is also for Lanny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62gvoKyODu4

Wow Burninator, you solved the Kennedy assassination using an episode of Penn & Teller's Bull$hit. I'm convinced. Screw the years of research and simulation... Penn & Teller have had the final say.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

The stance that McCain takes, is that Roe v. Wade is ultra vires. That the courts never had the power to make legislation.

In which case, its not about infringing upon rights and freedoms, but ensuring laws are made by the right people, with the hope that they "make the right decision"... whatever that is. While I have a fairly liberal view on abortion (that being first trimester is acceptable, as well as rape and for the mother's health), a lot of people don't believe that abortion is a constitutionally guaranteed right to begin with. Futhermore they'd state that the founding fathers would under no circumstances acquiesce to an interpretation that would "allow women to kill their unborn babies."

Clearly, opening this debate again is "courageous" at best. While I agree with McCain that the judiciary shouldn't make laws, this one might be best left alone.

Actually, the United States Supreme Court made the correct decision. The whole abortion discussion is about the rights of one individual, that being the pregnant woman. She has the right to control what happens to her, and to her body. If she so elects to have any procedure that affects her body, that is her constitutional right. The fact that she carries a fetus is irrelevant, as that fetus is NOT protected under the constitution.

By letter of the law, the constitution protects all American citizens and legal residents. A fetus is NOT considered an American citizen. It is not considered eligible for citizenship until it has a registered birth certificate, so the baby must be born to be afforded rights and protections of the United States constitution as an identified citizen. Until that point, that fetus is still considered part of the mother, who has complete choice of control over her body, unless under the age of majority.

CalgaryBornAgain stated "They were/are only suppose to interpret the Constitution; Not add to it." In fact, if Roe v. Wade were over-turned, and protections for unborn fetuses put into the constitution, the document would indeed be changed to support the moral or religious beliefs of one segment of the population. The constitution is just fine as it is, especially when it comes to individual freedoms. No further amendments are required, especially ones that limit the decisions that citizens can make in regards to their own bodies.

BTW, you disagree with this and institute constitutional protections for a fetus, you completely open the door to challenges for any illegal that enters the country. Because you afford rights of a citizen to an unborn fetus, any woman carrying a fetus in the United States is carrying a United States citizen. You can't boot the illegal because that fetus has been designated a US citizen. You think you have an illegal problem now? Just wait for stupid legislation like that to be implemented.

[RougeUnderoos]

Well since the comedians said it...

I'm not going to give to much time to the Penn/Teller bit, but obviously that "point aim fire" exercise was useless. I'm no sniper expert, but I've gotta think that real snipers actually take an instant or two to aim the rifle instead of firing as soon as the bullet is in the chamber. I don't really understand the part about "the bullet takes the brain matter with it out the other side". Wasn't JFK's wife scrambling over the trunk picking up pieces of his head?

I'm quite willing to be convinced, but those guys don't do it.

[Azure]

Was the bullet hollow point?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Cool information Captain. We'd you dig that up. I've never read that before, not that I'm much of a Kennedy Assassination buff. What I have read does contradict that. A summary of his record indicates he wasn't very good at all and barely qualified.

"Lee Oswald" attended boot camp in San Diego, waking up at 5 am for
classes, exercise drills, and training with M-1 rifles. Cadet Sherman
Cooley recalled that Oswald had a great deal of difficulty qualifying
with his weapon, a distinction that earned him the unofficial rank of
"bird." "It was a disgrace not to qualify," Cooley said, "and we gave
him holy hell" (175).

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.m-dr.html




Wow Burninator, you solved the Kennedy assassination using an episode of Penn & Teller's Bull$hit. I'm convinced. Screw the years of research and simulation... Penn & Teller have had the final say.

I have a couple of books on marine corp history that talk about Oswald.

Also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald

Wiki confirms it about halfway down. Remember that each range has a different score so while 191 is lower then 212, in terms of qualifying, the range with the lower score has a greater difficulty, and probably worse conditions.

His military dossier seems to confirm it here

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/MS/mil.html

21 DEC 1956: Weapons test
Range: [unreadable] Course: [unreadable]
Weapon: M1 Final Qualification: 212 MM

212 marksman qualification M1 Garand

His jacket ends in 1957 and seems to be incomplete,
If you look at the bottom it describes his self inflicted gun wound.

I have some trouble with the witness statement, based around his apparent scores. Like I mentioned before Oswald had a lot of trouble during the practice and training sessions probably because he was nervous, and he had an instructor or his fellow cadets leaning over his shoulder. However when it counted, he probably settled in pretty well.

To be honest, I was a pretty lousy shot in training, but I was an exceptional shot especially over long range when I was tested or qualified.

I was a lousy pistol shot, fair with the SMG, but when you put a long rifle in my hands I was fairly deadly.

I think Oswald was probably the same way.

I have to say with some certainty, that depending on the rifle, and I've been in the book repository that Oswald took the shot from, 3 aimed shots in 6 seconds can be done. They will be general area shots, and probably won't be as acurate as a fat guy with a bow and arrow, but it is possible.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

Was the bullet hollow point?

Snipers usually don't like to use hollow point rounds because they don't have the range or true flight of a standardized rifle round. With a sniper the idea is to hit certain areas to ensure death.


The forehead, the temple, the nose. The middle of the chest, with or without a hollow point round will all cause death. Accuracy is more important then mass truama

You don't need hollowpoints.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Snipers usually don't like to use hollow point rounds because they don't have the range or true flight of a standardized rifle round. With a sniper the idea is to hit certain areas to ensure death.


The forehead, the temple, the nose. The middle of the chest, with or without a hollow point round will all cause death. Accuracy is more important then mass truama

You don't need hollowpoints.

Well, at least there isn't that point to bring down the magic bullet theory.

Thats for the clarification though.

[badnarik]

looking at the shot distance and the direction of the vehicle, the shot does not look difficult even for an average shooter like Oswald. It looks like a 70-100 yard shot at a target moving almost directly away from Oswald, plus he had a scope and a place to anchor his arms.

I have a hard time believing this can't be recreated.

[HotHotHeat]

The debate created between people hear speaks for itself on whether the JFK shooting is a cut and dry closed case.

A bit back on topic....

Obama's massive crowds are giving secret service agents a headache. More agents are covering Obama than Hillary, and he got them before the candidates usually begin receiving protection. (Hillary was still being protected because of her former first lady status)

A bit of relevance to the conversation in this bit:

A few voters even say they are reluctant to vote for Mr Obama because a Southern racist might shoot him.

"There are people in this country who will not accept a black president," said Marvin Henderson, 32, at a Bill Clinton rally in Amherst, New Hampshire.

"Even before he got elected, I think some redneck or the Ku Klux Klan would try to do something about it."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...wuspols508.xml

[Azure]

Not a Northern racist?

Oh right, I forgot...there are not racists in the Northern States.

My mistake.

[Rhetts_the_Best]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Wow. That didn't even cross my mind. Where do these people come from? Who thinks of that?

People that get paid to shock the world with outlandish stories!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by badnarik

looking at the shot distance and the direction of the vehicle, the shot does not look difficult even for an average shooter like Oswald. It looks like a 70-100 yard shot at a target moving almost directly away from Oswald, plus he had a scope and a place to anchor his arms.

I have a hard time believing this can't be recreated.

The closest recreation was by an independant expert who fired three aimed shots from the same kind of Mauser and put all three bullets in a one inch circle.

Oswald had a short range, a slow moving target moving directly away from him, he had a scope , and Kennedy's head would have come close to filling that scope depending on scope power.

It can be done.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not a Northern racist?

Oh right, I forgot...there are not racists in the Northern States.

My mistake.

I know you want people to be PC on this and all, but lets not forget that areas in the "South" reap this on themselves.

I mean, the whole concept of civil war reenactments is mindboggling and really only serves to further stereotypes.

[badnarik]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Remember that each range has a different score so while 191 is lower then 212, in terms of qualifying, the range with the lower score has a greater difficulty, and probably worse conditions.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying here, but Marine Corps ranges are all the same unless things were different back in the '50s.

191 is a bad score in almost any condition. He might have just had a bad day. Regardless, he still was trained in the basics and could have improved, and I still think he could have made the shot in Dallas.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not a Northern racist?

Oh right, I forgot...there are not racists in the Northern States.

My mistake.

Actually I was thinking of someone from Idaho or Montana. Mainly because so many extremist groups set up shop in these two States.
They like the big open spaces with low population and little policing. Not too many black folk around either.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by badnarik

I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying here, but Marine Corps ranges are all the same unless things were different back in the '50s.

191 is a bad score in almost any condition. He might have just had a bad day. Regardless, he still was trained in the basics and could have improved, and I still think he could have made the shot in Dallas.

From my understanding the second range where gained the 191 ss (sharp shooter) was a range with a longer distance. Back then, not all ranges were uniform as they were today.

n May 1959, on another range, Oswald scored 191, which was 1 point over the minimum for ranking as a marksman

I found this in Wiki, I can get my books out of storage to confirm this, but it should also be confirm able through the Warren Report.