Lots of room on the right of the Tories

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I'm saying that I strongly disagree wioth the idea that the government somehow cares more than a corporation.

Ugh. And I thought I was a cynic. They are far from perfect, but come on.

Let's make this easy. A test!

1. Who is concerned more about the education of the local children?

A) Coca-Cola
B) The school board

2. Who is more concerned about making as much money as possible above all else?

A) Your elected alderman
B) General Motors

[4X4]

Ok. But if you want to play this way then let me ask you who gets jobs done faster

a) the City of Calgary
b) a local contractor

Who gets jobs done cheaper?

a) your local government
b) your local contractor

[4X4]

at least a contractor or corporation is open about the fact that they intend to profit. You actually think that politicians give a crap? What, maybe if we elect a nice, fuzzy NDP govt we'll have some nice guys in the LA taking good care of us all?
Get real. Acclimatize yourself to reality. The government needs to make money to stay in business just like every corporation. They're just a little less upfront about it. Well, if you can say that. There really is no need to say something that is well known.

So really, dude... My original point was in response to someone suggesting that government control somehow equals better results. Are you going to prove it? Or are you just picking a a fight for fun?

[RougeUnderoos]

Well isn't that just changing the subject? We weren't talking about efficiency.

Is the contractor acting faster and cheaper because they care about the well-being of the citizens?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 4X4

at least a contractor or corporation is open about the fact that they intend to profit. You actually think that politicians give a crap? What, maybe if we elect a nice, fuzzy NDP govt we'll have some nice guys in the LA taking good care of us all?
Get real. Acclimatize yourself to reality. The government needs to make money to stay in business just like every corporation. They're just a little less upfront about it. Well, if you can say that. There really is no need to say something that is well known.

So really, dude... My original point was in response to someone suggesting that government control somehow equals better results. Are you going to prove it? Or are you just picking a a fight for fun?

Let's make it even easier.

The original poster in this thread appears to be a politician. Why don't you ask that person if her main motivation is to get rich in the lucrative world of provincial politics.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Well isn't that just changing the subject? We weren't talking about efficiency.

Is the contractor acting faster and cheaper because they care about the well-being of the citizens?

JTFC. This is your argument? You want to dissect the meaning of individual words?
I'll tell you this...: the contractor has to meet certain standards (set by govt. The job they're SUPPOSED to do). He meets the damn standards and really doesn't give a crap if a kid dies because the tiger fence was too low.
Are you trying to get me to admit that the contractor cares more than the govt?

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Let's make it even easier.

The original poster in this thread appears to be a politician. Why don't you ask that person if her main motivation is to get rich in the lucrative world of provincial politics.

She wouldn't get elected now, would she?

[4X4]

And get rich is one thing. Politicians get quite the salary and severance and pension. Plus they get their 15 minutes and they get to hobnob with the local cool dudes.

Do you really think they're getting elected to change your life? Sure most or some of them have a vision, but take away the paycheque and how many of these people are still running? Its a job just like anything else. People have ideas. People get promoted...

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 4X4

And get rich is one thing. Politicians get quite the salary and severance and pension. Plus they get their 15 minutes and they get to hobnob with the local cool dudes.

I'm not a rich man, but going the political route to make a lot of money and a fat pension sounds like a pretty dumb way to go about making money to me. Can you tell me about the severance package they get after they lose their job? I'm not familiar with that.

Originally Posted by 4X4

Do you really think they're getting elected to change your life? Sure most or some of them have a vision, but take away the paycheque and how many of these people are still running? Its a job just like anything else. People have ideas. People get promoted...

I guess I'm just not quite as sour on the whole "democracy" and "humanity" thing as you are. I've met (and goshdarnit, I might even be one of them!) people that put some value on things other than money. It only stands to reason that some of our elected officials might feel the same way.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Can you tell me about the severance package they get after they lose their job? I'm not familiar with that.

Here are the 2004 numbers:


http://www.taxpayer.com/pdf/2004-11-...able%20pdf.pdf

[4X4]

Great. Now I've managed to paint myself into some kind of corner where the only escape is to "have faith in politicians".
I'm not being cynical. I'm not saying that the only reason a person gets into politics is to rule teh world and get rich.

ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT POLITICS IS NOT MUCH DIFFERENT FROM BUSINESS. Do you need me to yell? If you think that people in politics are driven by some altruistic urge to help humanity and that people in business are driven by a self centered urge to profit on the backs of the poor, you're just not worth arguing with.

I'll ask you again, and for the last time... Are you going debate this with me or are you just picking a fight?

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not a rich man, but going the political route to make a lot of money and a fat pension sounds like a pretty dumb way to go about making money to me. Can you tell me about the severance package they get after they lose their job? I'm not familiar with that.



I guess I'm just not quite as sour on the whole "democracy" and "humanity" thing as you are. I've met (and goshdarnit, I might even be one of them!) people that put some value on things other than money. It only stands to reason that some of our elected officials might feel the same way.

Because stuff like that^^^ is not an argument. It is an ideal. Something that you hope to be truue or strive for. You might as well bust out the f'n bible at this point. What I'm saying is that politics "GOVERNMENT" is not much different from "CORPORATIONS" except that one is elected and the other earns their way in.

Please stop talking crap and start debating the point or else jsut shut the hell up. Please show me how politicians are so much better at getting things done than corporations. Show me (or tell me) why corporations are so bad and why more government is good. What it is taht government does better than private industry?

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I guess I'm just not quite as sour on the whole "democracy" and "humanity" thing as you are. I've met (and goshdarnit, I might even be one of them!) people that put some value on things other than money. It only stands to reason that some of our elected officials might feel the same way.

Anddont go being a drama queen with the word sour and tossing out humanity and democracy as though I'm forecasting the f'n apocalypse. You're picking a fight over my opinion that the government is no better running industry than corporations. So get to the point or else back off.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not a rich man, but going the political route to make a lot of money and a fat pension sounds like a pretty dumb way to go about making money to me. Can you tell me about the severance package they get after they lose their job? I'm not familiar with that.

Right. Well excuse me for saying that you're a regular Jack Layton in the making. You like to start arguments (or rather shoot down everyone elses ideas), but refuse to stay on topic and you like to battle for some kind of greater good that doesn't exist except in your head. And, in fact, will just as well admit it at other times (such as in threads about creation vs evolution). But only when it suits your purpose.
Andfor such a well informed guy, to pretend not to know that politicians are pretty well compensated for a job that frankly doesn't put many callusses on the hands is laughable. They get paid well. Like executives in mid or large sized companies. It's a pretty nice gig, if you can handle the hours. If you cant handle the hours, you cant handle any other gig that pays that kind of coin.


Keep going, bud. All you do around here is start arguments and poke holes in the opponents arguments, while never really saying anything yourself. Like a survival tactic. Cant hurt you if I dont know where you are... Right?
Are you going to say something other than "well.... The corporations dont care either...."?? Because I never said they did. Go back, read my posts, and understand what we're talking about before you post again.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Total bullcrap. "The same service"? "MORE than it was before"?



HAHAHA... And just exactly what business do you think the government is in?
Do you actually think that they're so altruistic that they are out there CARING about you instead of making money or getting re-elected? Dude, I've heard some whoppers , but this one takes it.

Go right ahead and put lots of things under government control. That way we can pay lots of taxes, but at least there's only one entity to complain about.
Instead of voting with our wallets, we can pay our taxes wait until next election. Because y'know, people that aren't making money care more about doing a good job than people that are.

a government cares more for the people than a corporation for the simple fact that they need votes. sure you can take the view that both are evil, but i'll take the lesser of two evils thanks

and so what about paying more taxes, that extra money would just be going to the corporations anyways in a private system. we don't see any extra money in our pocket at the end of the day either way, but at least the money needs to be somewhat accounted for in public office, whereas a corporation does whatever they please (not to mention having everything centralized for the consumer is a nice convenience)

i can't believe there are even people out there who argue in favor of privatization. WHEN has it ever benefited anyone except the rich? it's backwards thinking at best, and disastrous to the middle and lower classes at worst

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

a government cares more for the people than a corporation for the simple fact that they need votes. sure you can take the view that both are evil, but i'll take the lesser of two evils thanks

and so what about paying more taxes, that extra money would just be going to the corporations anyways in a private system. we don't see any extra money in our pocket at the end of the day either way, but at least the money needs to be somewhat accounted for in public office, whereas a corporation does whatever they please

i can't believe there are even people out there who argue in favor of privatization. WHEN has it ever benefited anyone except the rich? it's backwards thinking at best, and disastrous to the middle and lower classes at worst

HEY! Somebody that actually want to discuss teh topic!!! Rouge! Read Hemi's post and take note: that is a "response". An "opinion". A "contribution"...


Hemi, I suppose that in alot of ways you could consider the government the 'lesser of two evils'. Personally I consider the corporation to be taht. My reasons include the fact taht if the corporation isnt making money, it is going under. A government can run a defecit and stay in business.
A corporation can fire and replace its leaders for poor performance, a government can do the same, but requires a long, expensive process taht doesnt often fix much.

As for the nuts and bolts of operations of things like energy companies and insurance.... I'm just a firm believer in capitalism. Work hard and prosper. Wait for a handout and... starve...
Corporations arent as mean as everyone would have you believe. In fact. some governments are so smart that they offer tax breaks (incentives) to companiesa that donate to charities. And what are charities? these are little "corporations" that are taking care of little guys. Where do they get their money? Donors. Who are donors? Everyone. Including corporations and people who work for corporations.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Right. Well excuse me for saying that you're a regular Jack Layton in the making. You like to start arguments (or rather shoot down everyone elses ideas), but refuse to stay on topic and you like to battle for some kind of greater good that doesn't exist except in your head. And, in fact, will just as well admit it at other times (such as in threads about creation vs evolution). But only when it suits your purpose.
Andfor such a well informed guy, to pretend not to know that politicians are pretty well compensated for a job that frankly doesn't put many callusses on the hands is laughable. They get paid well. Like executives in mid or large sized companies. It's a pretty nice gig, if you can handle the hours. If you cant handle the hours, you cant handle any other gig that pays that kind of coin.


Keep going, bud. All you do around here is start arguments and poke holes in the opponents arguments, while never really saying anything yourself. Like a survival tactic. Cant hurt you if I dont know where you are... Right?
Are you going to say something other than "well.... The corporations dont care either...."?? Because I never said they did. Go back, read my posts, and understand what we're talking about before you post again.

Wow.

My original point was to disagree with the following statement:

Originally Posted by 4X4

Do you actually think that they're so altruistic that they are out there CARING about you instead of making money or getting re-elected?

I think you are wrong and I said so. If that's "starting an argument" then I guess I'm guilty.

As for the rest of it, if you have a problem with my contributions, such as they are, on this message board then the only course of action I can suggest is that you take it up with the moderators.

If you feel you've been painted into a corner then you might want to drop the paintbrush.

[4X4]

I'd fix my grammar and spelling but I really hate the edited footnote at the bottom.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don't even know where to start! Fact is that there were a huge amount of people who voted for someone other than the Tories in both the last provincial and federal elections. I would not consider it "overwhelming" support just because the ridings are all won by the same party...I call that electoral distortion.

Well they got 65% of the vote which was 3 times as much as the Liberals, 6 times as much as the NDP and twice as much as the three "main" parties combined so to me that is pretty overwhelming. When you consider the fact that much of the Liberal/NDP support is in centralized pockets of the province, overall int he Province I would say the Conservatives were oerwhelmingly the clear choice of Albertans

Originally Posted by Slava

The ideological shift in the province will likely be more evident after this coming election. As you may be aware, the Liberals will likely win both seats in your home city, as well as post gains in both Calgary and Edmonton. The Green Party was a non-factor ten years ago but now is clearly established as a protest vote, and oftentimes finishes third in ridings...clearly the times are changing more than you care to acknowledge!

[/quote]

The Liberals very well could win both seats here. Provincially the conservatives haven't run great candidates down here for some reason and the citizens of Lethbridge never cease to amaze me with their stupidity. And although it would piss me off and be a disgusting day for Lethbridge I wouldn't be shocked to see it happen. I still doubt that there will be a huge shift to the Liberals this election, whether that is because the party is so poorly run and an absolute joke or whether there isn't the ideological shift that many lefty idealists believe exists we'll have to see. There will be some shift as people are pissed with Stelmach but until the Liberals, or more likely a different party, actually are seen as a legitimate option my guess is Stelmach will continue to skate into office based on being the only realistic option no matter how pathetic he is.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Ugh. And I thought I was a cynic. They are far from perfect, but come on.

Let's make this easy. A test!

1. Who is concerned more about the education of the local children?

A) Coca-Cola
B) The school board

WOW what a test

New one:

1. Who is concerned more about the education of the local children?

A) local private school
B) local public school

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

taking necessities of daily life and putting them into the hands of corporations whose only concern is to make a profit is a ridiculous ideology.

Man I hope you are spoon-fed daily by your government, because we wouldn't want you to depend on private businesses to sell you food...because that would be so ridiculous.