Landover Baptist Pastor Preaches To Atheists

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by flames85

yes i could, my grandmother had breast cancer when she was young they told her she wouldn't live. she's a miracle because i just seen her at christmas

Can you explain why millions of men and women...some who were very much Christians...died from cancer? Why didnt your God save them? Why was there no miracle for them?
What about children...babies? Go to the Sick Kids hospital and visit the cancer ward. Why does your God want these children... who have never done any harm...to suffer and possibly die?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

You didnt answer my question...do you think that even if this meant a damned thing, which it doesnt...what % of the bibles purchased go towards replacing the millions of damaged bibles in all of the Christian churches?

I would of answered your question but I was too busy correcting your errors.

I don't have the faintest idea what percentage of the bibles purchased goes towards replacing the millions of damaged bibles in Christian churches. I didn't even know there was millions of damaged bibles. Are they worn out from use or is there a church mouse epidemic I haven't heard of?

Seriously now, if you read the article I provided it suggested that a good
chunk of Americans read the bible at least weekly. It also pointed to a lot of sales consisting of study bibles that include commentary,dictionaries, maps, ect. These wouldn't be purchased to sit in church pews.

Also, not all churches have bibles in there pews or for handing out to sunday school. We don't. Everybody brings there own to services. The Bible I use would be one of the millions that wouldn't be counted in that articles totals. It is a King James version published by a church publishing house. There are many local church publishing houses in the States which publish a wide range of Bibles. They are sold at cost or given away. There are two churches right in Alberta that I know about which publish partial New Testaments to be handed out. Try goggling "Bearing Precious Seed".

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

IF and this is a BIG IF...if most theists chose to simply live their life without foisting their choice of God on the masses then I cant see a problem. You know...and I know..and most everyone reading this knows thats not possible. Foisting is part of the package for most.

I haven't been taking part in this discussion since the first page but I'm guilty as charged. I like talking about this subject if it doesn't degenerate into counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I guess I'm a theist as I dont' follow any religion but I like certain teachings in the Bible and other books such as 'The truth will set you free'. The problem with religion is that in exchange for their small bit of peace or bliss or god, they require you to swallow a whole pile of garbage and take on more burdens such as creationism. This is hardly freedom so I find myself siding with the atheists more often than not except when they try to throw the baby out with the bath water.

And Cheese, you seem to do a lot of foisting yourself and I've heard you admit that you get a good feeling in these discussions too, so perhaps there is something more happening than this outside physical world and the ego.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I haven't been taking part in this discussion since the first page but I'm guilty as charged. I like talking about this subject if it doesn't degenerate into counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I guess I'm a theist as I dont' follow any religion but I like certain teachings in the Bible and other books such as 'The truth will set you free'. The problem with religion is that in exchange for their small bit of peace or bliss or god, they require you to swallow a whole pile of garbage and take on more burdens such as creationism. This is hardly freedom so I find myself siding with the atheists more often than not except when they try to throw the baby out with the bath water.

And Cheese, you seem to do a lot of foisting yourself and I've heard you admit that you get a good feeling in these discussions too, so perhaps there is something more happening than this outside physical world and the ego.

I dont think I have suggested anywhere that anyone should be an atheist. I have never said outright that a Christian should deconvert. I simply try to point out the fallacies where there are fallacies to point out. I could care less whether a person is a Christian, Muslim or Budhist. I simply dont buy the lies and I do not like the fact that it is foisted on young children who are born innocent and quite frankly...atheist. I also cant remember saying I get a "good feeling"...but I must say that I generally have good feelings most of the time! That could be alcohol induced though!! Discussing religion is a great thing...it creates thought from all sides...questioning...and in the end choice.

[TheDragon]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Can you explain why millions of men and women...some who were very much Christians...died from cancer? Why didnt your God save them? Why was there no miracle for them?
What about children...babies? Go to the Sick Kids hospital and visit the cancer ward. Why does your God want these children... who have never done any harm...to suffer and possibly die?

You know, that's a question that gets asked a lot by people who aren't necessarily Christians, too. I remember hearing one gentleman answering it his own way by describing human suffering, and pain, and death and tribulation as "God's" own way of insuring we don't forget about "him," and continue to search for "him." Hypothetically speaking, if everything was perfect, and we all lived happy, complacent lives without any problems or unfortunate circumstances, we'd eventually forget about "God," and who "he" is. People would no longer have any need for him. Now, that being said, the same can be said in times of tribulation. Nevertheless, I thought it was an interesting idea and something to consider. Regardless or whether or not he's real, people still continue to think about him.

If life was perfect, would we even develop an understanding of what "God" was or is? Even Atheists, who have taken the opposition side of the debate, have still accepted the concept in their own way, but have instead dismissed it based on lack of evidence of God's existence. By doing so, however, they're helping to perpetuate the idea, themselves.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I dont think I have suggested anywhere that anyone should be an atheist. I have never said outright that a Christian should deconvert. I simply try to point out the fallacies where there are fallacies to point out. I could care less whether a person is a Christian, Muslim or Budhist. I simply dont buy the lies and I do not like the fact that it is foisted on young children who are born innocent and quite frankly...atheist. I also cant remember saying I get a "good feeling"...but I must say that I generally have good feelings most of the time! That could be alcohol induced though!! Discussing religion is a great thing...it creates thought from all sides...questioning...and in the end choice.

I have one differing point. I take the position that god is everywhere and since he is everywhere he is inside of us also. [That doesn't mean you or I are god, there are a definite lines that I don't cross and I sometimes speak up when I see others crossing lines.] So if you believe in yourself, you believe in god. I also take the opinion that a young child is innocent and they believe in themself so they believe in god. A lot of what I try to accomplish is to return to or stay in this state so I can enjoy this experience.

Further a young child doesn't need drugs or pills or alcohol or as you say religion, to be happy although I might have a drink now and than strictly for medicinal purposes.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by TheDragon

I remember hearing one gentleman answering it his own way by describing human suffering, and pain, and death and tribulation as "God's" own way of insuring we don't forget about "him," and continue to search for "him." Hypothetically speaking, if everything was perfect, and we all lived happy, complacent lives without any problems or unfortunate circumstances, we'd eventually forget about "God," and who "he" is. People would no longer have any need for him.

That sounds like either insecurity or a child's temper tantrum, and not something a God who was capable of creating the universe and all of us would stoop to.

If he loves us and can do anything and everything you'd think he'd pick a better way to remind us of his existence than orchestrating the holocaust or allowing some kid to get lit on fire in the name of one of the religions he has allowed to flourish.

[Azure]

I don't think he 'orchestrated' the holocaust.

God lets man have his own free will. If Hitler wanted to kill a bunch of Jews, well, God wouldn't divinely intervene and suddenly strike him down. Nor will he intervene in nature....earthquakes, floods, etc, etc...all happen because of nature was made to act like that. Science will prove this.

That is just my personal belief.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't think he 'orchestrated' the holocaust.

Me neither. I was responding to that one rationale of "why god lets bad things happen".

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Me neither. I was responding to that one rationale of "why god lets bad things happen".

Yeah it's pretty crazy reasoning but misfortune can turn a person's mind to pondering life for a while. I saw the beginning of, I think, a Burt Reynolds movie where his boat has sunk and he starts making all these promises to god if he lets him live and if he is able to swim to shore. Of course being a fine movie he makes it and slowly his resolve to keep his promises wanes. I lost interest after about ten minutes but I think I react much the same way and probably most people do as well but it doesn't last. I think god is a little above this method and does better with his manna or nectar. Threats of fire and damnation or on the other hand, so called miracles, don't really mean much to me and I think are an invention of man.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't think he 'orchestrated' the holocaust.

God lets man have his own free will. If Hitler wanted to kill a bunch of Jews, well, God wouldn't divinely intervene and suddenly strike him down. Nor will he intervene in nature....earthquakes, floods, etc, etc...all happen because of nature was made to act like that. Science will prove this.

That is just my personal belief.

so then what do you make of flames85's comment about how god intervened to save his grandmother? by your beliefs there are no such things as miracles then i take it

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

so then what do you make of flames85's comment about how god intervened to save his grandmother? by your beliefs there are no such things as miracles then i take it

Shhhhh, wars have been started that way

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't think he 'orchestrated' the holocaust.

God lets man have his own free will. If Hitler wanted to kill a bunch of Jews, well, God wouldn't divinely intervene and suddenly strike him down. Nor will he intervene in nature....earthquakes, floods, etc, etc...all happen because of nature was made to act like that. Science will prove this.

That is just my personal belief.

The Free will argument, by people much more knowledgable than I.

1. If God exists, he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good.
2. The existence of suffering is incompatible with the existence of God.
3. Suffering exists.
4. God does not exist.

To make the argument clearer, consider the following clarifications. An all-knowing being will be aware of suffering; an all-powerful being will be able to prevent suffering; and a perfectly good being will desire to prevent suffering. If suffering exists, then God - who is characterized by the three attributes stated in point 1 - does not exist. It is possible for some other, non-Biblical god to exist, but he cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good, though he may be one or two of these.

Read the link below...
The Free Will Defence

and...

The argument from evil (or problem of evil) is the argument that an all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good God would not allow any--or certain kinds of--evil or suffering to occur. Unlike the logical argument from evil, which holds that the existence of God (so defined) is logically incompatible with some known fact about evil, the evidential (or probabilistic) argument from evil contends that some known fact about evil is evidence against the existence of God. For instance, one version of the argument contends that the biological role of pain and pleasure is much more likely on naturalism than theism (e.g., Paul Draper).
Other versions of the evidential argument concede that God could have a morally sufficient reason for allowing certain evils to occur--e.g., to ensure that some greater good is achieved as a consequence of an evil. However, proponents add, God would only allow as much evil or suffering as is absolutely necessary in order to achieve greater goods. But when we look at the world around us, we find prevalent instances of apparently gratuitous evil--pointless evils from which no greater good seems to result. According to proponents, the existence of apparently gratuitous evil provides strong evidence that God (as traditionally defined) does not exist (e.g., William Rowe).
For thousands of years theologians and philosophers have developed elaborate theodicies--responses to the argument from evil which retain belief in an all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good God. According to the unknown purpose defense (UPD), God allows apparently pointless suffering for some reason that we can't comprehend. The free will defensesoul-making theodicy (SMT) contends that God allows some evil because it builds positive character in the victims or in others which outweighs the negative value of the evil itself (e.g., John Hick). (FWD) maintains that God has to allow the existence of some evil in order to preserve human free will (e.g., Alvin Plantinga, Robert Adams). Finally, the soul-making theodicy (SMT) contends that God allows some evil because it builds positive character in the victims or in others which outweighs the negative value of the evil itself (e.g., John Hick).


Read link

Evidential Argument

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I have one differing point. I take the position that god is everywhere and since he is everywhere he is inside of us also. [That doesn't mean you or I are god, there are a definite lines that I don't cross and I sometimes speak up when I see others crossing lines.] So if you believe in yourself, you believe in god. I also take the opinion that a young child is innocent and they believe in themself so they believe in god. A lot of what I try to accomplish is to return to or stay in this state so I can enjoy this experience.

Further a young child doesn't need drugs or pills or alcohol or as you say religion, to be happy although I might have a drink now and than strictly for medicinal purposes.

A young child is "TAUGHT" the belief system of the parents that rear them. Children are born inherantly good without a single thought of malice. (Some children are handed a bad bowl of genetics at birth that could cause malevolent issues later)
Parents in North America train their kids to believe in Jesus Christ, in Iran they teach them Islam or Mohammadism. In other parts of the world such as the Philippines they are taught to punish themselves at Easter and some are raised to be martyrs for their Gods. If there was no teaching there would be no martyrs for any type of God. Parents teach their kids there is a Santa Clause, a Tooth Fairy, a Easter Bunny and a God. They know that the forementioned are all fantasy...and deep down they know they have a problem trying to teach their kids that an Omniscient God who cannot be seen, felt or proven....is real. Its a complex ordeal for parents. IF you love your children....why would a good parent make up lies to placate or challenge that child? Why would a parent (not necessarily CPs parents) use the idea of a Hell to let their kids know that if they are bad they will suffer evil horrors for all of eternity? Why would they teach a young adult that if they masturbate it is evil or wrong? Why would they teach a young woman that it is wrong to allow her choice over her own body?
There are literally thousands of Whys when it comes to teaching children the fallacy of God or Gods.
How does a person who lives in a Christian country next to Muslims all of their life explain the fact that genocide is morally good when it comes to eliminating evil from the world?
How do you explain that what is happening in the pics below is a good thing to children, or is it Free Will??

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I have one differing point. I take the position that god is everywhere and since he is everywhere he is inside of us also. [That doesn't mean you or I are god, there are a definite lines that I don't cross and I sometimes speak up when I see others crossing lines.] So if you believe in yourself, you believe in god. I also take the opinion that a young child is innocent and they believe in themself so they believe in god. A lot of what I try to accomplish is to return to or stay in this state so I can enjoy this experience.

Further a young child doesn't need drugs or pills or alcohol or as you say religion, to be happy although I might have a drink now and than strictly for medicinal purposes.

I hope he wasnt with me last night after I ate that Curry and drank a few beers!
The line a lot of Christians LOVE to use.
"God is everywhere and he will Judge you someday!"

That is really quite scary...

[TheDragon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That sounds like either insecurity or a child's temper tantrum, and not something a God who was capable of creating the universe and all of us would stoop to.

If he loves us and can do anything and everything you'd think he'd pick a better way to remind us of his existence than orchestrating the holocaust or allowing some kid to get lit on fire in the name of one of the religions he has allowed to flourish.

This really wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point was, it's because of human suffering that we have "constructed" the idea of God, in that without it, we would have no real reason for us to believe (or not believe) he is there. If we all came into this world with everything we needed, and everybody lived a life of equal length and happiness, then there would be no reason for us to strive for "spiritual" growth. Regardless of that "spiritual" growth is a few lines of text in the Bible, the Quran, Atheism or elsewhere. On the contrary, those texts likely would have never been written, as there would be no real viable source of inspiration to look for answers outside the box. If you said the word "Religion" to a person in that hypothetical instance, they'd probably look at you the same way as though you had just said "Flugenchicken."

Contrast is the most necessary component of any type of creation. Good needs Evil, just as the Light needs the Dark. The Male and Female. The Ying and the Yang. By us stating "god allows suffering, and therefore, he doesn't exist," is simply just putting the human ego on top of the matter, though who am I to say that that perspective holds any more or any less meaning than mine? Just because I look at the sun as being orange, and someone else looks at the sun as being reddish-yellow, doesn't necessarily make either of us right or wrong.

I'm a firm believer that everything happens for a reason, myself, be they suffering or bliss, though I wouldn't necessarily call myself a Christian. In fact, I'm as much a Christian as I am an Atheist. I'm not Agnostic, either. I don't really have a label at all, because I personally feel it's better to strive for those answers yourself.

As a side note, It's funny that the example of the Holocaust was used, because it happened to be a WWII veteren who I heard that specific idea from.

[flamesfever]

Cheese, I'm curious as to how you would handle questions about God when talking to a recovering alcoholic who is using AA to get better?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Cheese, I'm curious as to how you would handle questions about God when talking to a recovering alcoholic who is using AA to get better?

Not sure where you want to lead me in this question...its pretty open ended.

1. Man/Woman has addiciton to legal substance
2. Man/Woman wants to end addiction
3. Man/Woman joins AA to assist end to addiction.
4. Question of God comes up...God has helped you end your addiction...all hail the Omniscient God!
5. Alcoholic...um...where was this God when I was lying in the gutter 1 year ago?
6. Free Choice Mr Alcoholic. You chose to eliminate the sin of alcohol from your system today...not a year ago!
7. See my posts on Free choice....

Seriously for a moment..do you believe that God enables a man to quit drinking? Maybe its replacing one addiction with another?
Id like to hear your version first.
Can people quit drinking without a belief in God? Im pretty sure I know many who have and have remained drink free for many years. What if its a Muslim God...do they help people quit drinking?
Some religions use drugs or drinks to have a better vision of their God(s). How do you react to that choice?

Is AA a Christian organization? If so isnt that using those in difficulty to benefit?

edit..
Read more on AA and found this...
AA’s solution to alcoholism involves a lot of submission to God.

[flamesfever]

cheese, what do you say to a child dying of cancer who asks, "Daddy, what happens to me after I die?"

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

so then what do you make of flames85's comment about how god intervened to save his grandmother? by your beliefs there are no such things as miracles then i take it

I don't think 'miracles' as described in the NT take place anymore today.

His grandmother had faith that God would help her, and it may have given her the mental advantage. I believe that part has already been talked about in this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo