Landover Baptist Pastor Preaches To Atheists

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

it's only proof if you want to believe. try it.
you have never witnessed something you thought to be a miracle?

That isn't logical. If you WANT to believe, then everything can be proof. That's the point. In science there is no want or not want to believe, there is only evidence. The evidence has to work even if you don't want to believe.

There was a time when everyone wanted to believe the earth was flat, but eventually the evidence showed that it wasn't. People can still believe it's flat if they want.

I've been in evangelical Christian churches for 25+ years and I have never ever witnessed anything that I could say was a miracle.

And even if I had, anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. Your mind isn't reliable. Your memories can change, your perceptions are easily manipulated.

I know you probably won't but I'm going to recommend anyway that you read The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan. I can lend it to you if you on audio book if you want. All this way of thinking that we're trying to communicate to you about burden of proof and such is explained excellently in it. It's a great book about thinking about the world critically.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by Schultzie

It sounds as though you aren't very familiar with evolution, the big bang, the god gene or morality from an evolutionary standpoint. I suggest you read up on these topics, and I'm sure you'll find your answers.

Could you explain some of the miracles that have happened to you that could be used as evidence for god's existance?

yes i could, my grandmother had breast cancer when she was young they told her she wouldn't live. she's a miracle because i just seen her at christmas

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by flames85

look around you this is all evidence that God exists. how do you explain how we all came to be?

The big bang and evolution.

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

look around you this is all evidence that God exists. how do you explain how we all came to be?

Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean God is the only alternative answer. Who says those are the only two options?

[flames85]

Originally Posted by photon

Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean God is the only alternative answer. Who says those are the only two options?

well i am asking.... how do you explain it then?? how did we come to be?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by flames85

i couldn't agree more with you. there is no person on this earth that can prove to you God exists. You need to find that out within yourself. All we can do is try to help one another understand.

You just said it yourself, God exists in your mind (i'm fine with that)
But its too bad people like yourself don't come to the realization that that doesn't make it a fact.

You have shown zero proof that God actually exists.

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by flames85

well i am asking.... how do you explain it then?? how did we come to be?

So you would rather believe that some sky fairy put us here rather than to simply say "I don't know"?

That seems a little strange, don't you think?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Schultzie

It sounds as though you aren't very familiar with evolution, the big bang, the god gene or morality from an evolutionary standpoint. I suggest you read up on these topics, and I'm sure you'll find your answers.

Could you explain some of the miracles that have happened to you that could be used as evidence for god's existance?

Thats a pretty smug post and you know it. Those things that Flames85 listed are proof to him that god exists, and thats good enough for him.

Besides if I was arguing on Gods behalf and as his legal representation of this planet, I could say that God put events into place that allowed for Evolution, he started the big bang by providing the energy for allowing it to happen, since he designed life on this planet, genetic structure, the kill me gene and mortality for all designed by him. Oh and god also defined the laws of physics, and he was also responsible for the attraction between Heather Locklear and David Spade (Now there's a fricken miracle if I ever saw one)

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a company christmas party to attend.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Schultzie

It sounds as though you aren't very familiar with evolution, the big bang, the god gene or morality from an evolutionary standpoint. I suggest you read up on these topics, and I'm sure you'll find your answers.

Could you explain some of the miracles that have happened to you that could be used as evidence for god's existance?

Actually, there are no answers there either. They point to a way we all could have gotten here, but nothing explains how 'the big bang' came to pass. The problem is that the human mind is incapable of understanding a negative infinity on the timeline. The big bang may have been the beginning of our universe, but it is far from being the beginning of everything.

This is what keeps me firmly entrenched in the agnostic camp. There are things that we can't understand, at least not yet and science doesn't have the answers either. We may never know. I don't dismiss the possibility of a higher power setting all of this into motion. That raises even more questions. I'm not arrogant enough to believe that we have all the answers. We most certainly do not.

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

yes i could, my grandmother had breast cancer when she was young they told her she wouldn't live. she's a miracle because i just seen her at christmas

That's a pretty personal thing, by bringing it up keep in mind that any responses aren't a personal attack on you (rather they better not be).

(Glad to hear that she's ok BTW, cancer isn't very nice)

<end moderator mode>

Cancer does sometimes undergo spontaneous remission, and of course if the person is receiving treatment then the changes of getting better improve as well.

So even if it was a complete spontaneous remission with no medical treatment whatever, that still doesn't mean God performed the miracle.

EDIT: I'm not saying he didn't perform it, he may very well have, but because there's an alternative explanation as well it can't be evidence. Now if you did a study where a significant number of people prayed for got better vs. people not prayed for, that would be evidence. Unfortunately studies like that have been done with no evidence either.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by flames85

yes i could, my grandmother had breast cancer when she was young they told her she wouldn't live. she's a miracle because i just seen her at christmas

Something very similar happened to my grandma so I can appreciate where you are coming from, but I can't take it as a miracle. Medical science (and the removal of a larger portion of her innards) cured my grandma's cancer, not divine intervention.

If it was a miracle though, where does medicine end and god's persuasion begin. She wouldn't have survived without surgery, there is no doubt about it. What was the miracle? The surgeon's skill? The machine that found it? I hope I don't sound flip here, I really don't mean to considering the subject. I'm sincerely interested.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Schultzie

So you would rather believe that some sky fairy put us here rather than to simply say "I don't know"?

That seems a little strange, don't you think?

And here is where we find the problem with atheists...they are so proud of themselves for their ability to not believe (many of them anyway)that they must make fun of and belittle those that do with little comments like 'sky faries'. Active atheism is a way for people to make themselves feel superior. It really annoys me.

I'm guessing that's why I didn't find your video the least bit funny, and again I am far from being religious and I have an excellent sense of humor.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by flames85

How do you know he isn't real? Where is your proof?

If God existed the Edmonton Oilers would never have won five Stanley Cups.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Something very similar happened to my grandma so I can appreciate where you are coming from, but I can't take it as a miracle. Medical science (and the removal of a larger portion of her innards) cured my grandma's cancer, not divine intervention.

If it was a miracle though, where does medicine end and god's persuasion begin. She wouldn't have survived without surgery, there is no doubt about it. What was the miracle? The surgeon's skill? The machine that found it? I hope I don't sound flip here, I really don't mean to considering the subject. I'm sincerely interested.

Of course I can't speak for 85's grandmother, but I believe faith (even if it's in something false) is capabale of physiological results. Even Doctors will tell you that positive thinking is key to overcoming something nasty medically. So if a person believes God will help them....it may actually help them...regardless if a God did it or not. Interesting dynamic actually.

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

And here is where we find the problem with atheists...they are so proud of themselves for their ability to not believe (many of them anyway)that they must make fun of and belittle those that do with little comments like 'sky faries'. Active atheism is a way for people to make themselves feel superior. It really annoys me.

I'm guessing that's why I didn't find your video the least bit funny, and again I am far from being religious and I have an excellent sense of humor.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'd like to know what everyone thinks god is, then? "Sky fairy" is a simplified term, and it may come across as sounding a little condescending, but I don't think it's really that far off from what many religious people think god is.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Something very similar happened to my grandma so I can appreciate where you are coming from, but I can't take it as a miracle. Medical science (and the removal of a larger portion of her innards) cured my grandma's cancer, not divine intervention.

If it was a miracle though, where does medicine end and god's persuasion begin. She wouldn't have survived without surgery, there is no doubt about it. What was the miracle? The surgeon's skill? The machine that found it? I hope I don't sound flip here, I really don't mean to considering the subject. I'm sincerely interested.

My grandmother is a very spiritual woman, honest truth is her only cure was prayer. Like i said they told her she would not live. That is a miracle, you even solidify that by stating the same that your grandmother wouldn't have survived. Same thing the doctors said about my grandma. Thats why i think its a miracle.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by driveway

If God existed the Edmonton Oilers would never have won five Stanley Cups.

.....good way to lighten the mood

if God didn;t exist we wouldn't have kipper right now.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Schultzie

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'd like to know what everyone thinks god is, then? "Sky fairy" is a simplified term, and it may come across as sounding a little condescending, but I don't think it's really that far off from what many religious people think god is.

Keep in mind, my post wasn't referring solely to you and your post but to a prevalent practice I have experienced with atheists.

I find it more than a little condescending and I'm agnostic. If you want to avoid that interpretation you might want to choose your words more carefully. Not trying to be an ass, just a suggestion.

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

well i am asking.... how do you explain it then?? how did we come to be?

Well I've got a pretty good idea of how the universe developed over time, how the earth came to be, how life started and evolved and eventually I was born.

Of course there are points in there where science doesn't know yet. What caused the big bang? No idea. How did life start? They have some good ideas, but no really they don't know yet.

But just because it isn't known doesn't mean God did it.

I'm not saying you can't believe God started the whole universe, or that God used evolution to create humans, or whatever. I'm just saying just because we don't know yet doesn't mean God is the only alternative. Maybe we're all a big computer simulation?

[driveway]

Originally Posted by flames85

My grandmother is a very spiritual woman, honest truth is her only cure was prayer. Like i said they told her she would not live. That is a miracle, you even solidify that by stating the same that your grandmother wouldn't have survived. Same thing the doctors said about my grandma. Thats why i think its a miracle.

I think that what you are thinking was a 'miracle' is almost certainly in fact another shining example of 'the power of positive thinking'. Your grandmother is spiritual, she believes in her God, she believes that prayer to her God will be answered, this belief leads to her physiological improvement.

This is also known as the 'Placebo effect' - the litle understood phenomenon where people who suffer from real phisiological disorders improve when given a pill they believe will help them - even if the pill contains no actual medicine.