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Old 12-30-2007, 03:29 PM   #21
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Does this accurately describe all "religious" people?
No, of course not. But it describes a hell of a lot of them, and it probably describes whoever wrote that quote.
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:30 PM   #22
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But I guess in the name of 'atheism' that is alright, because apparently they have to 'educate the ignorant masses.'

Nevermind being tolerant about other beliefs.
Glad to see you are doing the same.
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:31 PM   #23
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There are certain things that certain religious people believe that simply and absolutely can't be true.

I don't see how you can argue with that, even if you do believe in God.
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:32 PM   #24
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Glad to see you are doing the same.
Absolutely.

I love calling atheist people 'ignorant'....'unbelievers'...whatever floats your boat these days.

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Old 12-30-2007, 03:33 PM   #25
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What do you mean by that? What sort of "truth" are you describing here?
Things that happened, can happen or perhaps will happen in actual reality.

Dinosaurs and man hanging out together. A magic hat that tells a guy a story.

These things did not happen in reality. We know they aren't true. That's what I mean by truth, but the people who believe them are considered reasonable. The people that point out that this is craziness are called unreasonable.
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos View Post
Things that happened, can happen or perhaps will happen in actual reality.

Dinosaurs and man hanging out together. A magic hat that tells a guy a story.

These things did not happen in reality. We know they aren't true. That's what I mean by truth, but the people who believe them are considered reasonable. The people that point out that this is craziness are called unreasonable.
So, you are talking about propositional truth.

It is really unfair to label many of the biblical narratives wholescale "false" when the burden of proof for ancient historiographers was really non-existent.

Did Moses write the Book of Exodus, or make the speeches recorded in the Book of Deuteronomy? True or false or does it even matter?
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:49 PM   #27
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So, you are talking about propositional truth.

It is really unfair to label many of the biblical narratives wholescale "false" when the burden of proof for ancient historiographers was really non-existent.

Did Moses write the Book of Exodus, or make the speeches recorded in the Book of Deuteronomy? True or false or does it even matter?
I don't know. I don't know if we can know. I'm not calling any biblical narrative "false" (though I don't believe them), I'm saying that some beliefs some religious people have are false.

It's like this -- I'm not saying Christianity is false, even though I don't believe it. I'm saying the belief (that happens to be one that some Christians hold) that men and dinosaurs hung out together is false. Nothing philosophical, nothing theological, nothing fancy, it's just not true. We know it's not true. It doesn't even have anything to do with God.
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:52 PM   #28
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Where does this 'belief' of men and dinosaurs hanging out together come from?

The Bible never mentions it....so obviously it is not a biblical narrative.

I think a bigger problem many 'religious' folks have is their ridiculous desire to take everything the Bible says in a 'literal' way. Naturally they have the biggest mouths too. Thus the stereotypes formed against religion in general.

People like Hitchens dwell on these stereotypes, which is why I find him overzealous at times. There are religious people out there that CAN be reasonable. You just don't see them on the news 24/7.
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Old 12-30-2007, 04:04 PM   #29
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Where does this 'belief' of men and dinosaurs hanging out together come from?

The Bible never mentions it....so obviously it is not a biblical narrative.

I think a bigger problem many 'religious' folks have is their ridiculous desire to take everything the Bible says in a 'literal' way. Naturally they have the biggest mouths too. Thus the stereotypes formed against religion in general.

People like Hitchens dwell on these stereotypes, which is why I find him overzealous at times. There are religious people out there that CAN be reasonable. You just don't see them on the news 24/7.

The majority of Muslims do not belong to AlQueda either just as the majority of those not in favor of abortion do not go out and kill the doctors who perform those procedures, and the list can go on. The simple truth is that most people are not fundamental extremists. And the media does not run newscasts on those who cause no rumblings, just plain boring. Radicals, extremists, whatever, stories about those people sell the news.
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Old 12-30-2007, 04:22 PM   #30
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There are religious people out there that CAN be reasonable.
Sure, and I wouldn't and hopefully didn't suggest otherwise.

The dinosaur thing is just an example of the whole reasonable/unreasonable and tolerant/intolerant thing.

Pointing out unreasonable beliefs is not unreasonable in itself, or intolerant, as the Herald editorial suggested.

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...f-c85523683df7

The funny thing is the editorial is about some dumb teenage atheist in Chicago suing her school because they have a 15 second "time of reflection" every day that she doesn't like. That's unreasonable. I just didn't like the conclusion (which is all I originally read).
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Old 12-30-2007, 04:43 PM   #31
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The majority of Muslims do not belong to AlQueda either just as the majority of those not in favor of abortion do not go out and kill the doctors who perform those procedures, and the list can go on. The simple truth is that most people are not fundamental extremists. And the media does not run newscasts on those who cause no rumblings, just plain boring. Radicals, extremists, whatever, stories about those people sell the news.
Right on!

There is nothing wrong with atheism....but keep it friendly. We live in a free country, believe what you want.

Secret is....don't shove it down my throat.

Same thing goes for the religious folks.

Sadly, there are 'fundamentals' on both sides trying to educate the ignorant masses.
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Old 12-30-2007, 04:45 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos View Post
Sure, and I wouldn't and hopefully didn't suggest otherwise.
Nah, not really.

Sometimes it just needs clarifying.

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The funny thing is the editorial is about some dumb teenage atheist in Chicago suing her school because they have a 15 second "time of reflection" every day that she doesn't like. That's unreasonable. I just didn't like the conclusion (which is all I originally read).
Just a time of reflection?

Dumb indeed.

What are they reflecting on? God?
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Old 12-30-2007, 05:29 PM   #33
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Right on!

There is nothing wrong with atheism....but keep it friendly. We live in a free country, believe what you want.

Secret is....don't shove it down my throat.

Same thing goes for the religious folks.

Sadly, there are 'fundamentals' on both sides trying to educate the ignorant masses.
Ummnnn, no, the masses are not ignorant. They just choose not to be fundamental or extremist in how they represent themselves. And as far as I am concerned, it takes more education and more tolerance and more acceptance and more rationality to represent yourself that way.
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Old 12-30-2007, 05:31 PM   #34
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Ummnnn, no, the masses are not ignorant. They just choose not to be fundamental or extremist in how they represent themselves. And as far as I am concerned, it takes more education and more tolerance and more acceptance and more rationality to represent yourself that way.
Agreed.

But to the fundamentals we are the ignorant masses.
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Old 12-30-2007, 05:38 PM   #35
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Agreed.

But to the fundamentals we are the ignorant masses.

I don't think on the whole the fundamentalists think the masses are ignorant. I think they look upon the masses, at least a portion of them, as people they can convert to their line of thinking. And unfortunately with some fundamentalists, they wish to destroy those they realize they will never convert. Takes away a line of resistance.
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Old 12-31-2007, 05:15 PM   #36
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By dogmatic I mean arrogant unquestioning individuals who try to force their beliefs on others e.g. fundamentalists on the Religious side and some of the zealous Atheists on the other.

There was an interesting article in the Editorial section of the Herald this morning entitled "Prayer or silence not offensive". Here is the last part of it:

Atheists appear to be the angriest people in western society. Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris practically froth at the mouth, so virulent are they in denouncing other people's beliefs, and insisting that theirs is the only truth. One might ask how atheists envision a Godless, reason-based society when they aren't even reasonable enough to tolerate the practices of those with whom they disagree.
Could it be they are so insecure in their own non-belief because they are afraid there just might be a God after all?
ROFLMAO...seriously? Ive yet to see any of the above mentioned froth. Hell even I havent frothed even with a mouthful of ice cream! Thats obviously crap and a weak attempt by theism of any type to paint atheism in a weak light.
Heres a better example...turn the TV to any favorite religious channel and watch a televangelist of your choice...do any froth at the mouth talking about heathens? LOL

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Old 12-31-2007, 05:18 PM   #37
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Like?
Walking on water.
Turning man to stone.
Miracles of any type.
Jesus
God
An Ark
6000-10,000 year old earth
Man born of virgin
Man coming back to life after death
Mohammad taken to heaven on a winged horse


Is that a start?

and finally..humor?

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Last edited by Cheese; 12-31-2007 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 12-31-2007, 07:15 PM   #38
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LOL Fotze....

The Izzard spins a few...(warning on language)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XJfR...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ope-1...eature=related

and Dave Allen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk

Last edited by Cheese; 12-31-2007 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 01-01-2008, 01:23 PM   #39
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So, you are talking about propositional truth.

It is really unfair to label many of the biblical narratives wholescale "false" when the burden of proof for ancient historiographers was really non-existent.

Did Moses write the Book of Exodus, or make the speeches recorded in the Book of Deuteronomy? True or false or does it even matter?
I seriously wish all Christians were as educated as you Textcritic! Thats the real problem isnt it? The vast majority dont understand even 1% of what they are taught or reading. Perhaps you should start a factual church....is that possible?

Looks like the Archbishop of Canterbury is sounding a little atheist-like these days...

The Archbishop of Canterbury said yesterday that the Christmas story of the Three Wise Men was nothing but a 'legend'.
Legends...

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