Fitness freak?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Would these prove effective over a 90-day period or longer?

My experience, most of those exercises only help build muscle 'endurance'....and won't exactly 'bulk' you up.

But I've been doing many of them for years now, so I see now reason why they wouldn't be effective over a 90 day period.

Like every other exercise, you'll probably hit a plateau as your muscles will have become 'used' to doing the same thing over and over again.

I usually rest at that time, or simply change it up.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Would these prove effective over a 90-day period or longer?

Definitely, these are basically the kind of exercises I do from home. I'm primarily interested in climbing so I'm not super interested in bulking up. I'm all about proportional strength to body weight while maintaining flexibility and mobility. The best way to get better at climbing is to climb but pull-ups are great for working several muscle groups at once. The key for body weight exercises (and any exercise) is good form.

Just a couple of tips:

1) For pull-ups always do them with your palms away from you. This utilizes your shoulders and back to lift yourself up as much as possible. Those are your biggest upper body muscles. Start with your hands at or just beyond shoulder width.
2) For any body weight exercise keep your core tense. If your core goes you lose your form and the exercise is going to work.
3) For push-ups be rigid like a plank and keep your elbows from flaying outwards. Your hand placement will also change which muscle groups you're focusing on.

Enough tips, just go climbing. If you keep at it, I guarantee that after 90 days of consistent climbing you will have a ripped upper body.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by Azure

Like every other exercise, you'll probably hit a plateau as your muscles will have become 'used' to doing the same thing over and over again.

There are ways to keep going with these exercises though. For example, with push-ups you can elevate your feet. With pull-ups and you can start adding weight by clenching dumbbells between your knees (I stress that you should not do this until you can do at least three sets of 10 normal pull-ups).

[Got Miikka?]

I find that Men's Health magazine (and/or website) does a very respectable job of keeping up with the current literature in developing its articles. All of this stuff (as with a lot of science) is in a constant state of flux. But if you want some decent tips on basic-to-advanced exercises you can perform at home or the gym and nutritional advice, grab the latest issue or surf their site. They share information on regimens for some of the fitter celebrities as well - I would venture that Ryan Reynolds, who was on the cover last year, has one of the more enviable physiques (some of which certainly owes to the science of somatotyping - see my last paragraph concerning individuality) I've seen. If you can track down that issue you'll find that nutrition is HUGE. They barely touched on what the guy did at the gym to get into shape for that Blade movie.

Another thing that I can't stress enough is COMMITTMENT. I don't have time to read through the bickering about creatine but suffice it to say that supplements do have their place; however, ultimately there is no magic formula. You want results? Get into it. It's going to take time and effort on your part. There's a mantra around my office (Lumberg-esque as it may be) that I think translates equally well to the gym: 'Activities Drive Results'.

And finally, and perhaps most importantly: do what works for YOU. Everyone is different. That's why there are personal trainers, and not public trainers. It would be impossible to explain all of the variables that have brought me success, and, even if I could, downright ignorant to expect they would do the same for another single human being on this planet. I am me, you are you. If you're totally clueless, sit down with someone with some knowledge and ask them to help you design a regimen that is tailored to what you want. It's going to be unique. But if you stick to it, you might get what you're after.

I sound like a prick in this post.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

There are ways to keep going with these exercises though. For example, with push-ups you can elevate your feet. With pull-ups and you can start adding weight by clenching dumbbells between your knees (I stress that you should not do this until you can do at least three sets of 10 normal pull-ups).

Absolutely.

...the key is changing it up.

[Flames2007FIRE IT UP]

best cardio in my opinion is sports. Hockey and basketball are great because they essentially are like the HIIT program, sprints in-between jogging. I also get bored on a treadmill and it is easier to stay motivated when you are playing a game. I grew-up playing b-ball and hockey, so that is another appeal for me.

[Ch40s]

Since I, like I said before, have grown tired of bickering with you, here is my final stance on both protein and creatine supplements, backed up by references, who, if you don't care to trust, proves to me that the only reason you're taking supplements is because it's a fad.

Protein:

Originally Posted by http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=MBuicho8O54C&dq=fitness+professiona l's+handbook+howley&printsec=frontcover&source=web &ots=ATZlac-9vu&sig=Jg7IQxlk8PQBEkaLB-CvkXvI6u0

(Page 115) For athletes engaging in high-intensity, high-volume resistance training, a protein intake of up to 1.7 g/kg/day may be needed (4)./snip

Originally Posted by http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=MBuicho8O54C&dq=fitness+professiona l's+handbook+howley&printsec=frontcover&source=web &ots=ATZlac-9vu&sig=Jg7IQxlk8PQBEkaLB-CvkXvI6u0

Athletes should meet additional protein requirements through food choices, not through supplements. There is an upper limit to the rate at which muscle mass can be increased; therefore excessive protein intake (i.e., above the recommendations) does not enhance performance or increase muscle mass (4). Because of the higher caloric intake of intensively training athletes, a diet with normal distribution of macronutrients typically contains adequate amounts of protein, so purposefully consuming additional protein is usually not necessary.

This is from the same book, I'd just thought I'd throw it in since you're convinced protein is so difficult to obtain through a normal diet:

Another issue that sometimes arises is the adequacy of protein intake for vegetarian athletes. Because plant proteins are not digested as well as animal proteins, it is suggest that athletes following a strict vegetarian diet consume 1.3 to 1.8 g of protein per kilogram of body weight (4).

If vegetarians - people who don't even eat meat - can get as much protein as an athlete needs (ie, max at 1.7g/kg/day), then I hardly think you have any right to complain about not being able to balance your diet with enough protein.

This is my stance. I, quite frankly, do not give a crap why you think you need to drink protein shakes. I've cited a professional's opinion. This is why I believe it, and I don't care if at this point you don't.

Creatine: (ACSM is the American College of Sports Medicine. Again, if you don't choose to trust them, well... all I can do is shake my head)

Originally Posted by http://www.acsm.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Research/Roundtables_Specialty_Conf/PastRoundtables/Creatine_Rt.pdf

Research indicates that Cr supplementation can increase muscle
phosphocreatine (PCr) content, but not in all individuals. A high dose of 20
gzd21 that is common to many research studies is not necessary, as 3 gzd21
will achieve the same increase in PCr given time. Coincident ingestion of
carbohydrate with Cr may increase muscle uptake; however, the procedure
requires a large amount of carbohydrate. Exercise performance involving
short periods of extremely powerful activity can be enhanced, especially
during repeated bouts of activity. This is in keeping with the theoretical
importance of an elevated PCr content in skeletal muscle. Cr supplementation
does not increase maximal isometric strength, the rate of maximal

force production, nor aerobic exercise performance. /snip

Although Cr supplementation
exhibits small but significant physiological and performance
changes, the increases in performance are realized during very specific
exercise conditions. This suggests that the apparent high expectations for
performance enhancement, evident by the extensive use of Cr supplementation,

are inordinate.

All of this came from simply the abstract. Feel free to read the whole thing as I've provided a link.

What I got from that: Creatine may help performance in specific situations. This suggests to me that the everyday weight lifter simply does not need it, seen in the last sentence where it claims that the expectations for the product are very unreasonable. You may think you need it.. good for you. Here's some more quotes from the same article:

Despite the
potential for gain in “performance” from Cr supplementation,
it should be noted that the changes in muscle total Cr
and PCr caused by Cr supplementation do not mimic any
adaptive changes that occur in response to exercise training

programs.

So when I "lied" about it not having an impact on helping you become stronger.. well I wasn't lying. Furthermore:

Finally,
there is no evidence that Cr directly stimulates protein
synthesis or alters myosin expression in normal differentiated
muscle cells (29,119). Thus, there is no presently identified

anabolic effect of Cr supplementation.

So there we have it. Creatine's limits are well defined at helping to increase the capabilities of your creatine phosphate energy system. Keep in mind that this system is limited to the first ~10 seconds of high-intensity activity, and that's very limiting. (Ie, if your cadence is 2-0-2, that's 4+ seconds per rep, and this energy system stops helping you partway through your set, depending on your rep #). This limit means:

Neither aerobic, high-intensity resistance, nor

sprint training is accompanied by significant changes in
PCr, total Cr content, or Cr kinase activity (65,75).

So there are negligible effects due to Creatine supplements, especially if you're simply someone who goes to the gym 3x a week, and does not compete in any events.

This article did point out that creatine supplements have some use/benefits. I've interpreted these benefits to be reasonable only if you're competing at a certain level (ie sprinting in the olympics). Like with protein, you can feel free to take them, I'm done trying to convince you specifically that they are bad.

This is my opinion. Feel free to read through that ACSM article and mention the points about supplements helping performance. I've pointed out everything that I've gotten out of it. This along with my previous experience tells me I'm never going to need creatine supplements. You may feel you need to, and again, good for you.

[Azure]

I think its been pointed out 'numerous' times that taking too much of anything is never good. Of COURSE I agree that excess protein is bad. Nobody is saying that you can never get enough protein.

Both your initial quotes are telling me that I do NOT take in enough protein. I train hard, 6 days a week, so obviously I do not qualify as the person going to the gym 3 times a week, at leisure.

Your quote about the vegetarian does NOT say that they can get enough without eating meat. It simply says that it is recommended that they eat MORE protein than normal, based on the fact that protein from plants does not digest as well as the protein from animal sources. Well no kidding, and a lot of vegetarians I know use protein shakes to shore up that inadequate supply of protein.

But one thing you 'never' pointed out is the importance of protein digestion. Its no secret that protein powders are absorbed VERY quickly by the body, hence their popularity, AND importance. If the quote you provided shows direct emphasis on the inability for plant protein to digest fast enough, therefore vegetarians should automatically consume MORE protein, doesn't that clearly show how important the fast absorbing protein powder is to a body that automatically craves protein after a workout?

I will quote one 'general' quote from the link you provided.

although the performance of muscle is clearly better in the
presence of the PCr/Cr system than in its absence

I think that sums it up pretty well.

Like you said, for hard-training athletes, it does work. Someone going to the gym 3 times a week certainly doesn't need Creatine, but hey, if it works for them, good.

There are NO health risks, despite your whining about it throughout the whole thread.

But one has to make sure the substance is not over-done, just like anything else.

I'll read through the study later on, as I'm busy with something else right now.

I'm done trying to convince you specifically that they are bad.

Thats good, because they're not.

[Ch40s]

Azure, I have no problem with you being stubborn. I'm plenty stubborn.

But when you're trying to make something of nothing and trying to weasel your way away from the facts - ESPECIALLY from scientific literature - well that just tells me your ignorance is not worth any trouble - from me or anyone else.

[Got Miikka?]

I'm drunk now, but, ch40s and Assure, I love you both. Happy holidays. Work out safelly.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

Azure, I have no problem with you being stubborn. I'm plenty stubborn.

Yes, but at least you stuck around long enough to reiterate your stance 180 degrees. From initially saying that Creatine does NOT work, at least you now admit that it can help.

But when you're trying to make something of nothing and trying to weasel your way away from the facts - ESPECIALLY from scientific literature - well that just tells me your ignorance is not worth any trouble - from me or anyone else.

I never weaseled away from anything.

I was busy and said I would respond later.

Now, from the link you provided.

Exercise type. The relative importance of PCr during
exercise is dependent on the nature of the exercise. For most
exercise situations, the demand for ATP is predominantly
provided through oxidative phosphorylation in the mito-
chondria. However, under some conditions aerobic energy
production cannot meet the demand for ATP. In these cases,
anaerobic energy production from PCr hydrolysis and gly-
cogenolysis/glycolysis is required to assist in the provision
of ATP.

So your belief of...

So there are negligible effects due to Creatine supplements

It is in fact not true.

The general idea of the whole report seem to be...

Does Cr Supplementation Enhance Exercise
Performance?
Short-term Cr supplementation can lead to an improvement in performance. Most (2,4,8,10,13,20,24,25,31,35,40,48,60,74,79,88,94,1 12–114)
but not all (6,11,18,19,28,64,67,85,93,103) of the studies
indicate that Cr supplementation significantly enhances the
ability to produce higher muscular force and/or power output during short bouts of maximal exercise in healthy young
adults. Subjects in these studies have been of mixed athletic
ability and training status, from relatively untrained novices to
competitive college level athletes. At present, exercise perfor-
mances that are improved include: various protocols of short-
term, all-out cycling (2,4,8,13,20,25,48,79,94,110), sprinting
(10,24,40), repeated jumping (10,114), swimming (37,74),
kayaking/rowing (60,88), and resistance-exercise performance
(25,31,35,114).

Is that clear enough for you?

EDIT: Its kinda dumb to argue about a moot point.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm done.

Sorry for taking it so far off-topic folks. But hey, my thread, I can mess it up any way I like.

[CaptainCrunch]

Thought I'd throw in my workouts to get this back on to topic

Day 1

Warmup, stretches, heavy bag boxing for 15 minutes
pushups 3 sets of 20
Bench press 4 sets of 10 (140 pounds)
Incline Bench press 4 sets of 10 (140 pounds)
Decline Bench Press 4 sets of 10 (140 pounds)
Leg curls 4 sets of 20 heavy weights (75 pounds)
Bench Flys 4 sets of 10 (barbells 50 pounds)
Incline Bench Flys 4 sets of 10 (barbells 50 pounds)
Decline Bench Flys 4 sets of 10 (barbells 50 pounds)
Hamstring leg curls 4 sets of 20 (50 pounds)
Squats medium weights 4 sets of 10 (80 pounds)
Crunches 4 sets of 33
reverse crunches 4 sets of 33

Day 2

Stretch and warmup
Dumbell rows (alternate weekly with bar rows) 4 sets of 10 (barbells 50 pounds, bar 80 pounds)
Reverse Flys 4 sets of 10 (35 pounds)
Back extensions (alternate weekly with deadlifts) 4 sets of 10 (deadlift 80 pounds)
Pullovers 4 sets of 10 (80 pounds)
Military press 4 sets of 10 (80 pounds)
Lat raises 4 sets of 10 (50 pounds)
Upright Rows 4 sets of 10 (50 pounds)
Side to side ab crunches 4 sets of 35


Day 3

stretch and warmup
pushups 3 sets of 20
20 minute jog treadmill
Deadsit bicep curls (alternate weekly with preacher curls or standing bar) 4 sets of 10 (dead sit barbells 40 pounds, preacher and standing bar 60 pouonds)
Hammer curls 4 sets of 10 (40 pound barbell)
Leg curls 4 sets of 20
Skull crushers 4 sets of 10 (50 pounds)
Triceps curl 4 sets of 10(40 pounds)
Hamstring curls 4 sets
squats 4 sets of 10
Crunches 4 sets of 35
Reverse crunches 4 sets of 35


day 4

go for a long walk

Thats what I'm doing, some other things, no more then 45 second breaks between exercises. a good ipod with 700 songs and lots of water throughout the day. I've just picked up a workout ball so I can start doing some other things of off days. But of course if I'm missing something let me know

oh on average, I work out of no more then 90 minutes a night right after work.

[Azure]

Stretch and then warmup?

I do it the other way around.

Warmup, then stretch.

I've always been told to never stretch a cold muscle.

Stretching before lifting is more likely to CAUSE injury than prevent it. Stretching a colder muscle can more easily lead to a strain or pull, and can also destabilize the joint and stretch tendon/ligament attachments (leading to further instability). And yes, there will also be some strength loss as well.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

Stretch and then warmup?

I do it the other way around.

Warmup, then stretch.

I've always been told to never stretch a cold muscle.

I typed it in as a general heading

I do my warmups first to get the blood moving, then I stretch em out.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I typed it in as a general heading

I do my warmups first to get the blood moving, then I stretch em out.

Ah, I see.

Of course our P.E. teachers in school always made us stretch before the warmup. I talked to one of them recently and she said the requirements for that had all been changed.

Now they stretch AFTER their activities. Just a simple warmup to begin.

...course they never really thought of that back 'then'....so we wasted 20 min screwing around cause none of us wanted to stretch anyways.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

Ah, I see.

Of course our P.E. teachers in school always made us stretch before the warmup. I talked to one of them recently and she said the requirements for that had all been changed.

Now they stretch AFTER their activities. Just a simple warmup to begin.

...course they never really thought of that back 'then'....so we wasted 20 min screwing around cause none of us wanted to stretch anyways.

Our school warmup was a brisk game of murder ball. Nothing gets your muscles twitching like trying to avoid getting hit in the face by a gym teacher propelled murder ball moving at 80 miles an hour.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Our school warmup was a brisk game of murder ball. Nothing gets your muscles twitching like trying to avoid getting hit in the face by a gym teacher propelled murder ball moving at 80 miles an hour.

That must have been farther back in the day.

....one of the kids in our class once broke his hand playing lacrosse. We had to sit in the classroom learning about the physics of breaking your hand for 2 months after that.

Course the teachers weren't smart enough to figure out that sitting in the classroom isn't helping us form the 'active lifestyle'....they often spoke of.

Trust the public education system to screw it all up.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

That must have been farther back in the day.

....one of the kids in our class once broke his hand playing lacrosse. We had to sit in the classroom learning about the physics of breaking your hand for 2 months after that.

Course the teachers weren't smart enough to figure out that sitting in the classroom isn't helping us form the 'active lifestyle'....they often spoke of.

Trust the public education system to screw it all up.

In our day, gym class was more like survival school then anything else.

Oh great its learn how to wrestle week, prepare for some sadistic gym teacher to show you the nuances of a headlock designed to put you in a oxygen derived comma, or for the school twit to give you the atomic wedgie finishing move.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

In our day, gym class was more like survival school then anything else.

Oh great its learn how to wrestle week, prepare for some sadistic gym teacher to show you the nuances of a headlock designed to put you in a oxygen derived comma, or for the school twit to give you the atomic wedgie finishing move.

Or kick you in the junk because you 'schooled' them at basketball.

Must have been your day, because one of our gym teachers told us that you could kill someone by doing that.

....how do they figure stuff like that out? Trial and error?

[Azure]

http://health.msn.com/fitness/articl...0184336&page=1

Pretty good article about workouts.

I wish I had a 22 million dollar gym within walking distance.