Man dies after being tasered in Vancouver Airport

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

so if the guy makes no move to attack anyone and is just in an extended argument with police, this is grounds to use lethal force?

of course, it'd be possible for the situation to progress to that point... but at the point in the hypothetical situation we were at - no i don't think guns would be justified but less than lethal weapons like tasers would be.

How far exactly, do you think a Taser can shoot? A police officer would have to get WAY TOO CLOSE to the suspect to get a good shot off with the Taser. That is way too close to a man with a knife. What's wrong with taking out the gun and demanding he put the knife down? If he comes at the police, he gets shot.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

How far exactly, do you think a Taser can shoot?

according to the sources i've read its 30 feet maximum.
if there's more than one officer on the scene it would definitely be feasible and safe to try to use less than lethal force first.

from 30 feet away its pretty hard to stab someone.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

so if the guy makes no move to attack anyone and is just in an extended argument with police, this is grounds to use lethal force?

of course, it'd be possible for the situation to progress to that point... but at the point in the hypothetical situation we were at - no i don't think guns would be justified but less than lethal weapons like tasers would be.

If you are holding a knife in a confrontation with Police and refuse to put it down I think that regard for your safety and well being should be thrown right out the window and the cops should use any force they deem necessary to prevent anyone from getting hurt.

If you don't want them to use deadly force don't threaten them or others with a knife and put it down when asked. It seems pretty simple to me.

[Phaneuf3]

ah well, this is just degrading back to public safety vs. convenience for the police which won't be 'won' by either side.

at least a few people have conceded the possibility that tasers can cause or contribute to harm and even death; so i guess this hasn't been completely useless...

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

according to the sources i've read its 30 feet maximum.
if there's more than one officer on the scene it would definitely be feasible and safe to try to use less than lethal force first.

from 30 feet away its pretty hard to stab someone.

This demonstrates my point of this whole thread.

Someone wielding a knife is a DEADLY FORCE ENCOUNTER. A gun is the ONLY level of force that should be used. Now, here is the kicker. Each situation is different. The use of force model used by Canadian services is dynamic and stresses the need to constantly evaluate each situation. Is there TIME to deploy a taser, is there adequate cover for the officer, is he covered by someone that can use lethal force.

In your scenario, there is obviously a lot we don't know. Distance between suspect and officer or potential victims for example.

Although the range of the taser may be 30 feet, the EFFECTIVE range I assure you is much less. A taser shoots 2 "darts". The first one fires straight where the officer is aiming. The 2nd is on a slight angle thus allowing separation of the "darts" as they hit a suspect. The current arc's between the two- the wider the arc (distance between the 2 "darts") the more effective it is. At 30 feet, the chances of that 2nd dart missing the target entirely is great. The effective range is substantially smaller.

Related, as I have stated previously there is many good books on lethel force encounters. There is plenty of studies and good solid studies. And just a note on bladed attacks- studies have shown that reaction time from the holster to an advancing knife wielding assailant averages 27 feet. Obviously this is lower when an officer already has his firearm at the ready but what it demonstrates is the importance of action vs. reaction.

[Dion]

Taser gets litigious over suggestions the device causes deaths


Last November, Taser filed a lawsuit against the chief medical examiner of Summit County, Ohio "to correct erroneous cause of death determinations relating to the autopsy reports prepared by medical examiner Dr. Lisa Kohler," stated Taser's latest quarterly report filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

Kohler listed the Taser as being a contributing factor in the deaths of two men.

"We asked the court to order a hearing on the appropriate causes of death," said the statement. "And to order changes in the medical examiner's cause of death determinations for both."

A trial date has been set for April, 2008.

-------------------------------------------

The company may settle a lawsuit in situations where a settlement can be obtained for nuisance value," the report states.

It sites a June, 2007 settlement in a training-injury lawsuit brought on by a law enforcement officer.

In fact, 10 such training-injury lawsuits - including one filed in B.C. Supreme Court by RCMP officer Dan Husband - have been filed against Taser.

http://canadianpress.google.com/arti...zMK97QPg5Q5lGA

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Dion

Taser gets litigious over suggestions the device causes deaths


Last November, Taser filed a lawsuit against the chief medical examiner of Summit County, Ohio "to correct erroneous cause of death determinations relating to the autopsy reports prepared by medical examiner Dr. Lisa Kohler," stated Taser's latest quarterly report filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

Kohler listed the Taser as being a contributing factor in the deaths of two men.

"We asked the court to order a hearing on the appropriate causes of death," said the statement. "And to order changes in the medical examiner's cause of death determinations for both."

A trial date has been set for April, 2008.

-------------------------------------------

The company may settle a lawsuit in situations where a settlement can be obtained for nuisance value," the report states.

It sites a June, 2007 settlement in a training-injury lawsuit brought on by a law enforcement officer.

In fact, 10 such training-injury lawsuits - including one filed in B.C. Supreme Court by RCMP officer Dan Husband - have been filed against Taser.

http://canadianpress.google.com/arti...zMK97QPg5Q5lGA

well, i think that explains why more medical examiners aren't listing it as a contributing factor or even a cause of death.
"if you say anything bad about our product, we'll sue you. your fancy job and expertise don't scare us."
neat.

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

well, i think that explains why more medical examiners aren't listing it as a contributing factor or even a cause of death.
"if you say anything bad about our product, we'll sue you. your fancy job and expertise don't scare us."
neat.

I wouldn't think the threat of a lawsuit would mean much to a medical professional IF they have sound science behind their findings.

[Dion]

A coroner in South Carolina also ruled the Taser contributed to the death of William Teasley, who died in August after he was shocked at the county jail.

"The Taser gun was a last straw because he was Tased and he collapsed to the floor," said Charlie Boseman, a forensic pathologist who conducted the autopsy. Teasley died of cardiac arrhythmia, with the Taser and health problems, including an enlarged heart and heart and liver diseases, contributing.

Boseman said two Taser representatives called him and asked him "could we not use the Taser as part of the man's death."

"I told them that we could not change the report and leave the Taser out, because the Taser was used to bring the man down to the floor," Boseman said.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201827_taser01.html

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

I wouldn't think the threat of a lawsuit would mean much to a medical professional IF they have sound science behind their findings.

well, good thing the court system has never failed. In the states you can sue for anything no matter how ridiculous and win.

Originally Posted by Dion

A coroner in South Carolina also ruled the Taser contributed to the death of William Teasley, who died in August after he was shocked at the county jail.

"The Taser gun was a last straw because he was Tased and he collapsed to the floor," said Charlie Boseman, a forensic pathologist who conducted the autopsy. Teasley died of cardiac arrhythmia, with the Taser and health problems, including an enlarged heart and heart and liver diseases, contributing.

Boseman said two Taser representatives called him and asked him "could we not use the Taser as part of the man's death."

"I told them that we could not change the report and leave the Taser out, because the Taser was used to bring the man down to the floor," Boseman said.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201827_taser01.html

Although I am not a medical professional, I would suspect any other of the 'less lethal' forms of restraint- including the one you guys love- the good ole tackle could have contributed to his death. Hell, an enlarged heart, heart and liver disease and you are blaming a taser? Gimme a break.

Just curious, are you also researching the thousands (much more then all taser deaths combined) of times tasers have been deployed successfully and without any side effects? I thought not.

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

well, good thing the court system has never failed. In the states you can sue for anything no matter how ridiculous and win.

May as well change their findings at the request of the big 'taser' company then even though they have substantial proof

Since it's in style to link things, here ya go:

Safety of TASER® Electronic Control DevicesSafety of TASER® Electronic Control Devices Kroll, Mark PhD Mark Kroll & Associates Oct 2007


Injury Profile of Electrical Conducted Energy WeaponsDescription: Injury Profile of Electrical Conducted Energy Weapons Bozeman WP, Winslow III JE, Graham D, Martin B, Hauda WE, Heck JJ/Wake Forest University, Winston Salem, NC; Louisiana State University, Shreveport, LA; Inova Fairfax Hospital, Falls Church, VA; University Medical Center, Las Vegas, NV. American College of Emergency Physicians Scientific Assembly October 2007



Breathing Respratory Parameters, Venous Gases, and Chemistries With Exsposure To a New Wireless Projectile Conducted Electrical WeaponBREATHING PARAMETERS, VENOUS GASES, AND CHEMISTRIES WITH EXPOSURE TO A NEW WIRELESS PROJECTILE CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner; E. Lundin. Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy.



15-Second Conducted Electrical Weapon Application Does Not Impair Basic Respratory Parameters, Venous Blood Gases, Or Blood Chemistries15-SECOND CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON APPLICATION DOES NOT IMPAIR BASIC RESPIRATORY PARAMETERS, VENOUS BLOOD GASES, OR BLOOD CHEMISTRIES. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner. Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy,



Absence Of Electorcardiographic Change Following Prolonged Application Of a Conducted Electrical Weapon In Physically Exhausted AdultsABSENCE OF ELECTROCARDIOGRAPHIC CHANGE FOLLOWING PROLONGED APPLICATION OF A CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON IN PHYSICALLY EXHAUSTED ADULTS. J. Ho; D. Dawes; H. Calkins; M. Johnson. Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy



15-Second Conducted Electrical Weapon Expsoure Does Not Cause Core Tempature Elevation In Non-Enviromentally Stressed Resting Adults.15-SECOND CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON EXPOSURE DOES NOT CAUSE CORE TEMPERATURE ELEVATION IN NON-ENVIRONMENTALLY STRESSED RESTING ADULTS. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner.Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy,



The Nuroendocrine Effects Of The TASER X26 Conducted Electical Weapon As Compared To Oleoresin Capsicum. THE NEUROENDOCRINE EFFECTS OF THE TASER X26 CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON AS COMPARED TO OLEORESIN CAPSICUM. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner. Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy



Ultrasound Measurment Of Cardiac Activity During Conducted Electrical Weapon Application In Exercising Adults.ULTRASOUND MEASUREMENT OF CARDIAC ACTIVITY DURING CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON APPLICATION IN EXERCISING ADULTS. J. Ho; R. Reardon; D. M. Dawes; M. Johnson; J. Miner. Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy



Impact of conducted electrical weapons in a mentally ill population: a brief reportImpact of conducted electrical weapons in a mentally ill population: a brief report, Jeffrey D. Ho MD, Donald M. Dawes MD, Mark A. Johnson BS, Erik J. Lundin, and James R. Miner MD, The American Journal of Emergency Medicine, Volume 25, Issue 7, September 2007, pages 780-1785.



Cardiac Current Density Distribution by Electrical Pulses from TASER devicesCardiac Current Density Distribution by Electrical Pulses from TASER devices, Kroll MW, McDaniel W, Panescu D, Stratbucker RA., Conf Proc IEEE Eng Med Biol Soc. 2006;1(1):6305-6307



Finite Element Modeling of Electric Field Effects of TASER Devices on Nerve and MuscleFinite Element Modeling of Electric Field Effects of TASER Devices on Nerve and Muscle. Efimov IR, Kroll MW, Panescu D, Sweeney JD. Conf Proc IEEE Eng Med Biol Soc. 2006;1(1):1277-1279



Can the Direct Cardiac Effects of the Electric Pulses Generated by the TASER X26 Cause Immediate or Delayed Sudden Cardiac Arrest in Normal Adults?Can the Direct Cardiac Effects of the Electric Pulses Generated by the TASER X26 Cause Immediate or Delayed Sudden Cardiac Arrest in Normal Adults? Raymond E. Ideker, MD, PhD, and Derek J. Dosdall, PhD. Am J Forensic Med Pathol 1 Sep 2007 28(3): p. 195.



There's many more if you would like to read them.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

May as well change their findings at the request of the big 'taser' company then even though they have substantial proof

haha oh boy...
in a country where the courts have decided you can sue for coffee being hot and spilling it on yourself while driving or intelligent design can be taught in a classroom as science with no evidence i wouldn't blame these medical examiners for not wanting to put their careers and all their personal assets in the hands of the courts over this.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Since it's in style to link things, here ya go:

Safety of TASER® Electronic Control DevicesSafety of TASER® Electronic Control Devices Kroll, Mark PhD Mark Kroll & Associates Oct 2007


Injury Profile of Electrical Conducted Energy WeaponsDescription: Injury Profile of Electrical Conducted Energy Weapons Bozeman WP, Winslow III JE, Graham D, Martin B, Hauda WE, Heck JJ/Wake Forest University, Winston Salem, NC; Louisiana State University, Shreveport, LA; Inova Fairfax Hospital, Falls Church, VA; University Medical Center, Las Vegas, NV. American College of Emergency Physicians Scientific Assembly October 2007



Breathing Respratory Parameters, Venous Gases, and Chemistries With Exsposure To a New Wireless Projectile Conducted Electrical WeaponBREATHING PARAMETERS, VENOUS GASES, AND CHEMISTRIES WITH EXPOSURE TO A NEW WIRELESS PROJECTILE CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner; E. Lundin. Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy.



15-Second Conducted Electrical Weapon Application Does Not Impair Basic Respratory Parameters, Venous Blood Gases, Or Blood Chemistries15-SECOND CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON APPLICATION DOES NOT IMPAIR BASIC RESPIRATORY PARAMETERS, VENOUS BLOOD GASES, OR BLOOD CHEMISTRIES. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner. Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy,



Absence Of Electorcardiographic Change Following Prolonged Application Of a Conducted Electrical Weapon In Physically Exhausted AdultsABSENCE OF ELECTROCARDIOGRAPHIC CHANGE FOLLOWING PROLONGED APPLICATION OF A CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON IN PHYSICALLY EXHAUSTED ADULTS. J. Ho; D. Dawes; H. Calkins; M. Johnson. Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy



15-Second Conducted Electrical Weapon Expsoure Does Not Cause Core Tempature Elevation In Non-Enviromentally Stressed Resting Adults.15-SECOND CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON EXPOSURE DOES NOT CAUSE CORE TEMPERATURE ELEVATION IN NON-ENVIRONMENTALLY STRESSED RESTING ADULTS. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner.Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy,



The Nuroendocrine Effects Of The TASER X26 Conducted Electical Weapon As Compared To Oleoresin Capsicum. THE NEUROENDOCRINE EFFECTS OF THE TASER X26 CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON AS COMPARED TO OLEORESIN CAPSICUM. D. M. Dawes; J. Ho; M. Johnson; J. Miner. Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy



Ultrasound Measurment Of Cardiac Activity During Conducted Electrical Weapon Application In Exercising Adults.ULTRASOUND MEASUREMENT OF CARDIAC ACTIVITY DURING CONDUCTED ELECTRICAL WEAPON APPLICATION IN EXERCISING ADULTS. J. Ho; R. Reardon; D. M. Dawes; M. Johnson; J. Miner. Fourth Mediterranean Emergency Medicine Congress (MEMC IV), Sorento, Italy



Impact of conducted electrical weapons in a mentally ill population: a brief reportImpact of conducted electrical weapons in a mentally ill population: a brief report, Jeffrey D. Ho MD, Donald M. Dawes MD, Mark A. Johnson BS, Erik J. Lundin, and James R. Miner MD, The American Journal of Emergency Medicine, Volume 25, Issue 7, September 2007, pages 780-1785.



Cardiac Current Density Distribution by Electrical Pulses from TASER devicesCardiac Current Density Distribution by Electrical Pulses from TASER devices, Kroll MW, McDaniel W, Panescu D, Stratbucker RA., Conf Proc IEEE Eng Med Biol Soc. 2006;1(1):6305-6307



Finite Element Modeling of Electric Field Effects of TASER Devices on Nerve and MuscleFinite Element Modeling of Electric Field Effects of TASER Devices on Nerve and Muscle. Efimov IR, Kroll MW, Panescu D, Sweeney JD. Conf Proc IEEE Eng Med Biol Soc. 2006;1(1):1277-1279



Can the Direct Cardiac Effects of the Electric Pulses Generated by the TASER X26 Cause Immediate or Delayed Sudden Cardiac Arrest in Normal Adults?Can the Direct Cardiac Effects of the Electric Pulses Generated by the TASER X26 Cause Immediate or Delayed Sudden Cardiac Arrest in Normal Adults? Raymond E. Ideker, MD, PhD, and Derek J. Dosdall, PhD. Am J Forensic Med Pathol 1 Sep 2007 28(3): p. 195.



There's many more if you would like to read them.

awww neat! thanks for the info.

17871588 Error occurred: Article is deleted

i now see your point. TASERS FOR ALL!

[metallicat]

Most of them work for me.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

They all work for me.

really?
Finite Element Modeling of Electric Field Effects of TASER Devices on Nerve and MuscleFinite Element Modeling of Electric Field Effects of TASER Devices on Nerve and Muscle. Efimov IR, Kroll MW, Panescu D, Sweeney JD. Conf Proc IEEE Eng Med Biol Soc. 2006;1(1):1277-1279
even that one?
maybe i just got unlucky and clicked the one bad one first.

edit: ah - i see your edit now... maybe i did just unlucky

[Phaneuf3]

just dumping stuff here as i come across it from some of the articles:

(...)the fundamental law of electrostimulation predicts that the TASER pulses will not stimulate an ectopic beat in the large majority of normal adults.

so it is possible that the taser will cause an ectopic beat in some adults.

Therefore, it is highly unlikely that the TASER X26 can cause ventricular fibrillation minutes to hours after its use through direct cardiac effects of the electric field generated by the TASER.

through DIRECT effects. there is a lot of evidence that heart problems can result from indirect effects (i.e. adrenaline). also, this is purely theoretical


the ones from sorento, italy are using a very controlled environment and a ridiculously small sample size that anyone trying to draw a meaningful solid conclusion from that would be laughed at.

Significant injuries, while rare, can be caused by these weapons.

[Dion]

In early September 2005, a Chicago teenager was caused to go into ventricular fibrillation as a result of being shocked with a Taser. That was significant because Taser International has always maintained that its stun guns cannot cause this usually fatal heart disturbance in which the heart loses the ability to pump blood.

Apparently, the only reason the teenager survived was that he received immediate medical attention. Dr. Wayne H. Franklin, a pediatric electrophysiologist at Children’s Memorial Hospital in Chicago (and a second doctor), claimed that an electrocardiogram confirmed that the boy did, in fact, suffer fibrillation.

Dr. Franklin stated that this case demonstrated the danger posed by Tasers and why portable defibrillators should be available whenever the stun guns may be used.

http://www.newsinferno.com/archives/1116

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

just dumping stuff here as i come across it from some of the articles:
so it is possible that the taser will cause an ectopic beat in some adults.

through DIRECT effects. there is a lot of evidence that heart problems can result from indirect effects (i.e. adrenaline). also, this is purely theoretical


the ones from sorento, italy are using a very controlled environment and a ridiculously small sample size that anyone trying to draw a meaningful solid conclusion from that would be laughed at.

Ummm... adrenaline does have a direct effect on the heart,