NOVA - Intelligent Design On Trial

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Oh wow...that's a topic for a whole other thread, but surely you can't possibly be so naive that you're unaware of all the terrible crimes that have been and continue to be committed because of religion.



I would say it's a relatively sizable number of people who were motivated because of their religious beliefs who have been responsable for a great deal of evil, misery, and suffering throughout human history. Hitchens and Dawkins (among others) have both discussed this in much greater length than I will go into here.

Ok so if there werent any religion they would be motivated by something else...just like Hitler was motivated by a concept of a master race ... it is a small minority of Muslims that misinterpret the teachings of their religion...Islam isnt motivating millions and millions to commit gihad...

Whats the old saying there are a few bad apples that make the rest of us look bad?

As far as Dawkins goes - although hey i agree with some of what he says..he still is missing the point...he has no concept of what the human condition or nature is about..if he did he wouldnt be on his one sided crusade about how "stupid religion is". He can't even explain why its had this hold on society for thousands of years...all he can really say is it is stupid and if its not scientific than it must not be legit blah blah...

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Cheese is usually very active in a thread like this, and I hadn't seen him until then. He seems so dogmatic in his atheism, that I felt it would take an act of God to get him to Believe.

My first inclination was to chastise him for his rudeness, but the idea of "do unto others......" was so imbedded in my psyche that I made a conscious decision to do otherwise. See, religion does moderate one's behavior.

Or it turns you into a pompous ass?

If you choose to enter into a debate that discusses challenging systems of belief you should do so under the expectation that someone might tell you he or she thinks you're off your rocker for believing in a "mythical space fairy" or for thinking that something came from nothing.

The fact of the matter is that perception is everything. You take the leap of faith to believe that this world just IS, or you take the leap of faith that God made it the way it is, or you find yourself somewhere in the middle.

Personally I think the universe always was. There was no beginning, only recycling.. infinite recycling.

[flamesfever]

I used to focus on all the evils that were done in the name of religion, until I thought in fairness, I should also give credit for all the good that religion has done.

When you consider the astronomical number of people in the world i.e. 6.5 billion people, it seems to me that we should be marvelling at the amount of stability, rather than focusing on the instability in the world.

In my view, Religion plays a huge part in maintaining that stability. To expect to displace religion throughout the world with atheism IMO is not only unrealistic but may have disastrous consequences.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I strongly disagree with the emphasized portion of that statement. While there are certainly cases of good deeds being done in the name of religion, on the whole religion has been responsible for a huge amount of unspeakable evil. I wouldn't go so far to say that relgion is entirely bad, but for sure it is on the negative end of the spectrum, hardly neutral.

I guess that falling short of a complete catalogue of religion's moral ledger, we may have to agree to disagree on this point--but not before I offer this observation: religion has indeed been the justification for a lot of hateful views throughout history--but the other side of that ledger is in my view equally full. Just one example that I alluded to earlier was slavery: slavery in the U.S. was perpetrated for economic, not religious reasons. It was ended for religious, not economic reasons. (some churches supported it--but the main movers of abolitionism--William Lloyd Garrison, Harriet Beecher Stowe, etc.--were evangelical Christians. Add to that list the many Quakers who were both abolitionists and pacifists. And you're right--it's only one example--but to me, it's a telling one, because it's an example where people decided that the moral teachings of their religion were not consistent with what they were seeing on the ground, and so they engaged in social activism in order to create positive change, while their secular counterparts were at that time relatively happy with the status quo.

Your other comment--that "pluralism" was part of the creationists' justification for including a diversity of viewpoints in the classroom--is an interesting one. I suppose a case can be made that diversities of viewpoints SHOULD be taught, or at least that students should be alerted to their existence. But context is everything: creationists want ID to be taught in the science classroom. This is where we learn that not all truth is relative, because anything that is labelled as science must also meet the tests of science, and ID does not. If it's not science, you can't teach it in science class--end of story. It would be like teaching civics in shop class.

Of course, the "pluralism" advocated by the pushers of so-called "intelligent design" will turn out to be merely a pluralism of convenience. Would it extend to the inclusion of sex ed, or the biological roots of sexual orientation? Frank discussions of the real roots of the "pledge of allegiance" each time it is recited in class? Surely not--but maybe we can arrange a trade:

If America will also teach their students that the words "under God" appear NOWHERE in the words of the framers of the U.S. constitution--that actually, the pledge of allegiance was invented in the late 19th century as a way of introducing religion into a civic discussion that never included much of it--then maybe we can discuss teaching students that a few people don't believe in evolution in spite of the preponderance of evidence that exists to support it.

[peter12]

Your other comment--that "pluralism" was part of the creationists' justification for including a diversity of viewpoints in the classroom--is an interesting one. I suppose a case can be made that diversities of viewpoints SHOULD be taught, or at least that students should be alerted to their existence. But context is everything: creationists want ID to be taught in the science classroom. This is where we learn that not all truth is relative, because anything that is labelled as science must also meet the tests of science, and ID does not. If it's not science, you can't teach it in science class--end of story. It would be like teaching civics in shop class.

It's interesting that one of the main expert witnesses at the Dover trial is Kenneth Miller. Miller is a very devoted Catholic (I believe) who has consistently stood up to defend the relationship between evolution and a faith. His book, Finding Darwin's God, is a superb destruction of ID theory, as well as a profound and honest attempt by a scientist to find peace between his faith in God and his love of science. I highly, highly recommend picking up this book to anybody at all interested in this debate. For the more devoted atheists, I believe even Richard Dawkins recommends it in The God Delusion.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I used to focus on all the evils that were done in the name of religion, until I thought in fairness, I should also give credit for all the good that religion has done.

When you consider the astronomical number of people in the world i.e. 6.5 billion people, it seems to me that we should be marvelling at the amount of stability, rather than focusing on the instability in the world.

In my view, Religion plays a huge part in maintaining that stability. To expect to displace religion throughout the world with atheism IMO is not only unrealistic but may have disastrous consequences.

Here I have to disagree with you. Religion can sometimes provide local stability, but in a global sense it tends not to. Look, as just one example at the cultural war that is now being waged between Islam and the West, whether we like it or not.

And I don't think we should really be "marvelling at the amount of stability" in the world. There's not much to marvel over. Most of the world's children live in crippling poverty, and can't even get a clean glass of water to drink. Every year of the last century saw a war somewhere in the world. Much of the world is a complete disaster, actually--and when we live in our Westernized, developed-world bubble, it's really easy to forget that not only are we the lucky ones--but we are also the exception rather than the rule.

I don't think all of those problems are caused by religion either--but religion isn't going to solve them. The implied corollary to Christ's remark that "man does not live on bread alone" is that man must at least have bread--before he can nourish the other parts of him that crave nourishment.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Oh wow...that's a topic for a whole other thread, but surely you can't possibly be so naive that you're unaware of all the terrible crimes that have been and continue to be committed because of religion.

No kidding!

To boil the list down - when I look at the "value" of religion, I ask one simple question.

Does it treat everyone as equal? Or does it promote discrimination?

i.e. - Can a woman be the head of the organization? Is open homosexuality tolerated?

Usually the answer is "no" (although not always). In the face of open and ongoing discrimination, I don't really care how successful your organization was in the past. You no longer should have a place in modern society.

If any company in Canada preached the same sorts of values as many churches do they would very quickly be out of business. Things we take for granted as basic rights we somehow give a pass to for religious reasons.

I rather liked the comment about the Magical Space Fairy above. It reminds me of an earlier thread where many were scoffing at Scientology for having a belief in volcano dwelling aliens, but got upset when it was pointed out they had an equal basis as Christianity for having faith in their diety. I feel exactly the same way about "god" as I do Santa Claus. I see no reason that I should automatically give respect to a concept with no known basis in fact.

I'm not sorry if characterizing your deity as a fantasy offends you. Just as soon as the slightest shred of proof is provided, I will yield the point. Until then, I will continue to characterize your beliefs as exactly what they have proven to be thus far - make believe.

If that seems militant and rude - just imagine what it is like for people who don't share your beliefs to be confronted constantly by references to it in everyday life. From doing nativity scenes every year in school while growing up, to reading about God on every piece of money we carry.

I think belief in a supreme being is a lie, and I will happily continue to confront that lie at every opportunity. As soon as elements of society stop pushing that lie (and thankfully it is waning with every generation), I will be happy to "live and let live."

[metal_geek]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I used to focus on all the evils that were done in the name of religion, until I thought in fairness, I should also give credit for all the good that religion has done.

When you consider the astronomical number of people in the world i.e. 6.5 billion people, it seems to me that we should be marvelling at the amount of stability, rather than focusing on the instability in the world.

In my view, Religion plays a huge part in maintaining that stability. To expect to displace religion throughout the world with atheism IMO is not only unrealistic but may have disastrous consequences.

You couldn't displace religion unless everyone was willing to say.. "I don't believe" all at once. Replacing religion would hardly be disasterious, in fact it could just as easily be uniting..

If everyone in the world was christian, the would would be a better place?... If everyone was Muslim would it be better place?

There are so many religions in the world, which one is right?...
________
IOLITE CLEANING INSTRUCTIONS

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

My first inclination was to chastise him for his rudeness, but the idea of "do unto others......" was so imbedded in my psyche that I made a conscious decision to do otherwise. See, religion does moderate one's behavior.

But why is that a religious theme? Even within that question, Why should that only be considered a Christian moral?

I would personally put myself in the agnostic camp, largely because that is how I am able to reconcile everyone's varied beliefs.

Just as it annoys religious people when athiests disparage religious belief, it is just as annoying when the religious attempt to portray themselves as on the high moral ground.

back on topic, I tripped across an interesting histomap of evolution it is pretty neat. http://www.lessthanevolved.com/histo...evolution.html

EDIT: guess I should have continued reading the thread.

[MarchHare]

Ok so if there werent any religion they would be motivated by something else...just like Hitler was motivated by a concept of a master race

It's funny you should bring that up. While Hitler may have been motivated by an extreme form of eugenics, the millions of Germans who supported him didn't all share that same view. Hitler wasn't the one who personally committed the atrocities of the Holocaust; that great dishonour fell to the masses of willing Germans who carried out his dirty work. And why were Hitler's executioners so willing (to paraphrase a book title)? Because of hundreds of years of anti-Semetic attitudes pervasive amongst Christians (the dominant religion of Germany in the 1930s and 40s) who justified their hatred of Jews because they "killed Christ"*

*which, of course, ignores the whole point that Jesus himself wanted to be killed, if Christian dogma is to be believed, but nobody can ever say that religious fanatics are a particularly sensible group.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

It's funny you should bring that up. While Hitler may have been motivated by an extreme form of eugenics, the millions of Germans who supported him didn't all share that same view. Hitler wasn't the one who personally committed the atrocities of the Holocaust; that great dishonour fell to the masses of willing Germans who carried out his dirty work. And why were Hitler's executioners so willing (to paraphrase a book title)? Because of hundreds of years of anti-Semetic attitudes pervasive amongst Christians (the dominant religion of Germany in the 1930s and 40s) who justified their hatred of Jews because they "killed Christ"*

Be careful where you tread on Hitler. He was a secular dictatorship. Not a religious backing for his actions.

[MarchHare]

Be careful where you tread on Hitler. He was a secular dictatorship. Not a religious backing for his actions.

Oh, I know.

My point was that while Hitler himself wasn't motivated by religion, certainly some (most?) of the Nazis who were running the death camps were using religious dogma to justify their horrible actions. Namely, Hitler capitalized on a long-standing tradition of anti-semetism in Europe to motivate his death squads.

And, of course, Hitler's hatred of Jews can largely be attributed to the fact that they'd been used as a convenient scapegoat for Europe's problems by the Christian majority for centuries.

[evman150]

Great post Flashpoint.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I used to focus on all the evils that were done in the name of religion, until I thought in fairness, I should also give credit for all the good that religion has done.

When you consider the astronomical number of people in the world i.e. 6.5 billion people, it seems to me that we should be marvelling at the amount of stability, rather than focusing on the instability in the world.

In my view, Religion plays a huge part in maintaining that stability. To expect to displace religion throughout the world with atheism IMO is not only unrealistic but may have disastrous consequences.

Is morality and goodness a religious ideal? If so how does Hell fit in?

When a baby is born into the world they arent religious...they are atheist. The baby's parents teach that child to believe in their choice of dogma or not. Looking at the middle east most of the children are taught to <hate, dislike, kill> those who are not Muslim. In the west the children are taught to <hate, dislike> those who are not Christian. So is that baby who is born into the world a hateful being...or is it taught to hate?
Some children may not have any religion in their upbringing, but have angry parents, poor parents who arent around to provide guidance, or have chemical instabilities that cause negative behaviour. Could be many other issues they are raised with, but overall, baby's are born good, devoid of evil or hate.
Religions force parents into believing that their child cannot be saved unless their choice of theism is foisted upon that child. I think this is child abuse plain and simple. Let the child grow unfettered and clear of mind...let them choose their path without fairytale ideals being presented as real and the devil lurking under their bed.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Is morality and goodness a religious ideal? If so how does Hell fit in?

When a baby is born into the world they arent religious...they are atheist. The baby's parents teach that child to believe in their choice of dogma or not. Looking at the middle east most of the children are taught to <hate, dislike, kill> those who are not Muslim. In the west the children are taught to <hate, dislike> those who are not Christian. So is that baby who is born into the world a hateful being...or is it taught to hate?
Some children may not have any religion in their upbringing, but have angry parents, poor parents who arent around to provide guidance, or have chemical instabilities that cause negative behaviour. Could be many other issues they are raised with, but overall, baby's are born good, devoid of evil or hate.
Religions force parents into believing that their child cannot be saved unless their choice of theism is foisted upon that child. I think this is child abuse plain and simple. Let the child grow unfettered and clear of mind...let them choose their path without fairytale ideals being presented as real and the devil lurking under their bed.

I believe the old days of preaching "Hell, fire and damnation" are gone.

I agree, religion is misused in the Middle East.

I do not agree with the concept of "Original Sin.

I did not foist my beliefs on my children, but let them make their own choices in that regard. The concept of a devil was never employed to control behavior. I think the only way you influence children is by example.

I'm quite proud of my children. By the way, how may children have you raised, and how did they turn out?

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I believe the old days of preaching "Hell, fire and damnation" are gone.

Hardly.. while not explicitly old testament chatter.. this is one example..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Rob...and_liberalism

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Hardly.. while not explicitly old testament chatter.. this is one example..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Rob...and_liberalism

Oh yes the concept of one nutcase doesnt paint the picture for majority is still lost on people..

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Oh yes the concept of one nutcase doesnt paint the picture for majority is still lost on people..

While we might think that Pat Robertson is a nutcase and not representative of "mainstream" American Christianity, he does have millions of followers. Also, there's many, many other examples of people preaching about fire and brimstone.

One of the saddest things I read in Dawkin's book was his retelling of a letter he received from an American woman now in her 40s who was raised as a Catholic. She told him about how when she was seven, she was violated twice by her religion: first she was molested by her church's priest, and second, after the tragic death of one of her childhood friends (from a Protestant family), she was told that her playmate was burning in hell. She said of the two incidents, it was the second that was by far the more traumatic to her, and she frequently had nightmares or couldn't sleep because she was imagining her friend being tormented for eternity. What a terrible thing to do to a child.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

While we might think that Pat Robertson is a nutcase and not representative of "mainstream" American Christianity, he does have millions of followers. Also, there's many, many other examples of people preaching about fire and brimstone.

One of the saddest things I read in Dawkin's book was his retelling of a letter he received from an American woman now in her 40s who was raised as a Catholic. She told him about how when she was seven, she was violated twice by her religion: first she was molested by her church's priest, and second, after the tragic death of one of her childhood friends (from a Protestant family), she was told that her playmate was burning in hell. She said of the two incidents, it was the second that was by far the more traumatic to her, and she frequently had nightmares or couldn't sleep because she was imagining her friend being tormented for eternity. What a terrible thing to do to a child.

Right and we can think of many more examples of people being violated by other people..where religion has nothing to do with it..so i really dont get your point...people do bad things to other people which is my point, dont matter if its in the name of religion, race, the flag, a gang..whatever...As far as Pat Robertson goes..he doesnt force anyone to buy into his BS..people choose to believe that...let'm...

[MarchHare]

Right and we can think of many more examples of people being violated by other people..where religion has nothing to do with it..so i really dont get your point

My point was that millions -- if not billions -- of people have been told of the myth of an eternity of torment waiting for them if they don't obey the wishes of whatever authority figure is trying to influence them at the time. Passing on such traumatic experiences to children as in the example above is yet another example of the heinous acts committed by organized religions.