Man dies after being tasered in Vancouver Airport

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

It looks to me like he is presenting an expert opinion. That was one of your requirements.

The thousands of taser 'success stories' make this an extraordinary occurrence, and that will attract extraordinary public scrutiny.

My inexpert eye has me wondering why a man baracading himself in a room by himself was deemed an imminent threat that necessitated this kind of response in the first place. He was there for 10 hours? What was the sudden hurry? Why could the police not simply remain at the doors until real attempts to communicate with the man be attempted?

I would say presenting facts or opinion based on some sort of background would be an 'expert'. Again, I have made it quite clear one doesn't have to be an expert only that it is important to arm yourself with SOME knowledge, any knowledge of police procedure and tactics. All of his links are one sided stories of alleged police brutality and simply have no business being in this thread other to sensationalize an already sensational story.

As far as your other questions, I can't answer them. Only, if you listen to the audio commentary on the video, you can hear several times people asking where the police were. I can't imagine too many of them would be very sympathetic if the police came and let this guy continue his rampage. Most likely the thread on here would read something like, 'Police called to Rampaging Man @ Vancouver Airport and Do Nothing'.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Hmm. Well, you are the one that started with the "you weren't there" talk. I just expanded on it. We can do without the melodrama or feigned exasperation.

Does that mean you don't see the difference? Or should I now come back with, 'No, you started it'.

Trust me, I am far from exasperated. More surprised that the vast majority are being swept up in the media frenzy without taking one second to do any research on how police are trained. It seems there is a fair amount of tunnel vision caused by simply viewing the video.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Does that mean you don't see the difference? Or should I now come back with, 'No, you started it'.

I do see the difference. Your point of "you can't judge because you weren't there" is still bogus though.

Anyway, you made a good point earlier in response to another poster -- that people are arrested all the time in varying circumstances and nobody gets hurt or killed.

But when someone needlessly (and arguably through negligence of the police officers) dies during an arrest, anyone who questions police tactics o is immediately labeled "anti-cop" or dismissed because they "don't know enough about police procedures and don't know what they are talking about".

That's not the way it should work.

[MolsonInBothHands]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

I would say presenting facts or opinion based on some sort of background would be an 'expert'. Again, I have made it quite clear one doesn't have to be an expert only that it is important to arm yourself with SOME knowledge, any knowledge of police procedure and tactics. All of his links are one sided stories of alleged police brutality and simply have no business being in this thread other to sensationalize an already sensational story.

As far as your other questions, I can't answer them. Only, if you listen to the audio commentary on the video, you can hear several times people asking where the police were. I can't imagine too many of them would be very sympathetic if the police came and let this guy continue his rampage. Most likely the thread on here would read something like, 'Police called to Rampaging Man @ Vancouver Airport and Do Nothing'.

So you are saying that potential public response for police inaction might be a valid consideration, yet public response to over zealous action should be discarded? I don't need to be educated in police tactics and training to come to a reasonable conclusion the officers in question had not exhausted all possibilities before resorting to the use of the taser. 25 seconds? Hiding behind procedural manuals is a cop out, and questions do need to be asked.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I do see the difference. Your point of "you can't judge because you weren't there" is still bogus though.

Anyway, you made a good point earlier in response to another poster -- that people are arrested all the time in varying circumstances and nobody gets hurt or killed.

But when someone needlessly (and arguably through negligence of the police officers) dies during an arrest, anyone who questions police tactics o is immediately labeled "anti-cop" or dismissed because they "don't know enough about police procedures and don't know what they are talking about".

That's not the way it should work.

I have never dismissed anything you have said. I am merely trying to promote a better understanding of how/when/why the taser can be deployed.

Again, police are trained to use the taser when presented with a certain type of subject. If that subject is in a certain category, there is a designated level of force that is allowed to be used. The system itself is very dynamic and police must constantly evaluate the subject and the environment. In this case, if anyone of those officer can articulate it's use based on this training, they cannot be deemed to have used excessive force. This is why judging someone from a single camera view can be dangerous.

For example, a suicidal subject has threatened others with a gun. No gun is seen. 2 officers arrive on scene and for the sake of argument they are positioned facing each other, 25 feet apart. The subject is between them (pig in the middle type thing- yes, I again see the irony). Both officers have their guns drawn. The subject is facing officer 1. The subject pulls up his shirt and reaches for a gun. This obviously is not seen by officer 2. Officer 1 shots the subject, while officer 2 did not because he did not have the requisite grounds nor was the subject in the correct subject category to use lethal force.

Although this is an exaggeration, you can certainly see the importance of a) articulation b) perception. This is the crux of my argument. If those officers can ARTICULATE, based on their (not Rouges, not Dion's, not some politician in Ottawa, etc, etc) observations (read, PERCEPTION) that the taser was an acceptable level of force to be used on that subject, it simply can't be deemed excessive. It makes no difference if the police were there for 2 seconds, 25 seconds or 25 minutes- if they can legitimately articulate it's use at the moment in time it was fired, then any other arguments regarding their conduct matters little. The issue you guys have is training and use of force model.

This is why understanding police training/tactics is so important when judging an acceptable level of force. And I know Dion loves linking police brutality threads but I have never once said police are infallible, and there are certainly bad ones and there are certainly poor decisions that have been made.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by return to the red

It really tells you the state that society is in when they are more concerned about protecting a person's rights then actually protecting others safety

I agree 100%. And it says that the state of that society is perfectly on track. Our rights and freedoms are paramount to personal safety. It's "Live Free or Die" not "Take all my rights away. Just please don't hurt me."

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Yesterday I was upset that Canada was getting international condemnation for the acts perpetrated by our police force. I didn't think it right for the whole country of 35 million people to be condemned for the act of 3 or 4 RCMP officers. But now that I've read this thread and other opinions similar out there on the net, I think the whole country does need to be seen as supporting the death penalty for people who throw chairs.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I think the whole country does need to be seen as supporting the death penalty for people who throw chairs.

would certainly lower the crime rate... plus we could probably meet the kyoto goals.
also we wouldn't have any more of this crap where people are questioning police actions - just make it very clear:
jaywalking - death penalty
shoplifting - death penalty
public drunkenness - death penalty
speeding - death penalty

and now since our justice system would be so clear and straightforward, we'd have no real need for lawyers, judges, the courts, appeals, jails, etc, etc - think of all the money we'd save. the cops catch you doing something wrong and they can shoot you! YAY!

[redforever]

What a sad incident this is. Here is the eulogy delivered by a close family friend. Robert wrote this to his Mom once, "you become good by doing good"

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...0-1d3ee17656ae

[Dion]

Interesting piece about the life of Robert Dziekanski in todays Herald.

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...1-337746b2458e

[BlackArcher101]

Sorry if this has already been posted, but I couldn't see it.

The person that taped the taser incident apparently thought the use of the taser was right at the time. He changed his mind only after reviewing the tape.

Goes to show you how easy it is to lay blame or change your mind after the fact. Being there in the situation is a different animal.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/canadia...0?ecid=RSS0001

[Dion]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Sorry if this has already been posted, but I couldn't see it.

The person that taped the taser incident apparently thought the use of the taser was right at the time. He changed his mind only after reviewing the tape.

Goes to show you how easy it is to lay blame or change your mind after the fact. Being there in the situation is a different animal.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/canadia...0?ecid=RSS0001

I read something about that. I guess when he watched his tape and had a chance to look at things again he might have saw a different perspective.

At the same time the RCMP watched this film and it was probably valuable in a sense that they could compare it to what the officers and those witnesses said in interviews. Maybe to check the accuracy of the statements.

[Dion]

RCMP officers involved in Taser death reassigned.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/071117/national/taser_rcmp_commissioner

[Jayems]

Wow... talk about LAAAAZY reporting from CNN.

Last week, an airport security officer in Vancouver International Airport in Canada used a Taser device on a distraught 40-year-old man on his first airplane trip outside Poland. He died.

This is inside a story about another taser death in Maryland.

Last I checked, it was the video that was released last week and the event happened Oct. 14, and was RCMP officers, NOT security guards.

Who knows how long this error will stay up, but here is the link:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/18/taser.death/index.html

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Wow... talk about LAAAAZY reporting from CNN.



This is inside a story about another taser death in Maryland.

Last I checked, it was the video that was released last week and the event happened Oct. 14, and was RCMP officers, NOT security guards.

Who knows how long this error will stay up, but here is the link:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/18/taser.death/index.html

You must be mistaken. No one has ever died from a taser!

[MelBridgeman]

http://video.canada.com/Global_VideoContentHTML.aspx

An enhanced version of the amateur video showing RCMP officers using a Taser on a man at Vancouver International Airport shows a foreign object leaving the man's hand as he was shocked by the device.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

http://video.canada.com/Global_VideoContentHTML.aspx

That just links to a remberance day video.

[Eagle Eye]

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/index.html

Click where it says Calgary Video. You can see something fly out of his hand when he was taserd

Here is a copy that I made, sorry about the crappy quality, it looks better through the link on the calgary herald website.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v6...rent=Taser.flv

[OILFAN #81]

An interesting article on the use of tasers in Canada.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/0.../taser_firings

[Phaneuf3]

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Fox_ho...e_in_1119.html

[Ayrahb]

While I believe that this is a huge tragedy for the family and friends of Robert Dziekanski, something else has been bothering me about this case.

I read somewhere that Dziekanski had a criminal history in Poland. Why the hell has Citizenship and Immigration Canada issued a visa to a man with a criminal record?