Minor Hockey frustration

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by habernac

and this is why I am dreading what happens when my kid is of age to play hockey and other sports. There's always someone with an agenda. Kids get the shaft because some pinhead coach thinks his kid is the next big thing. Tough to say a kid's Dad can't coach his team, but what else do you do there?

My Dad coached me when I was young. He had a great time, we got to spend time together, the other kids loved him because he was fair. But he soon tired of the politics and stopped coaching. My interest waned after that as well, which is a shame.

I don't have any great answers for ya, Axmann. Good on ya for being invovled, lots of Dads would just avoid the confrontation.

little bit of background.
I have been coaching my son since he started. Its one of those things we share as a father/son thing and although we have had our battles. He told me that he is sad that I cant coach him this year.
secondly,
I am currently serving as the Past President of Minor Hockey, I was the President for the past two years.
and anytime I spoke to a child that was involved in minor hockey, my first question was "did you have fun?" and how did YOU do?
its all about having fun in my books, and does it really matter if we ever send a child to the NHL?
we all want to do well, I am as competitve as they come, but jumpin jeezus where does it end?

[corporatejay]

at 9-10 they should be playing both goalies 50/50, hell if they can do that in Midget AA they can do it in Atom, I think it's ridiculous he's being so unreasonable.

that being said, parents coaching their kids is not always a bad idea, that's one of my fondest memories of me growing up and I plan on coaching my kids one day...it's just a matter of being aware that you have to be fair.

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I wonder where the stereotype that hockey parents go nuts when the coach doesn't do what they want comes from?

You have a good point, and valid concerns, but if you are this mad when dealing with your kids coach, you probably come across as captain of the insano parents club.

Coach your kid and help him improve. If he doesn't get a fair shot (in the long term) then you need to deal with it. Just because he doesn't get played in one game (where you think he should), it doesn't mean he is getting screwed. Of course it doesn't mean he isn't getting screwed either. Talk to someone who is in charge of this kinda thing and get it dealt with in a calm manner.

you know, I could have gone mental on him in public and to be honest it was my first thought, but I invoked a 24 hour rule on the first incident that we had and then actualy left it alone.
my son got yanked from a game. no he wasnt playing very good, but they let him stew on the bench after they yanked him for a full 7 minutes before anyone went over and talked to him. 7 minutes may not seem like a lot, but for a 10 year old that just got yanked out of a game, its a lifetime.
Me talking to him yesterday was kinda the straw that broke the camels back.
I would love to help coach my son, but I have been advised that my services are not required and I am not one of these parents that belittle my son after every game. I asked him if he had fun, how he did and how he could improve, thats the end of the conversation.

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by droopydrew19

Just some other thoughts here. Are coaches not supposed to be certified once they get to a certain level?

I am pretty sure that they are not teaching these coaches to bag skate and control atom aged players diets?

It is a crappy spot you are in Axel because if you complain to vehemently you could be seen as pushing your son just as much as the coach. But you do need to stand up for your son.

Caoches need to be certified from the get go.
at this level, they need to obtain the next level of coaching, which I believe is called Coaching Level 1, the first certificate is Initiation.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Sample00

ya, he fully expected the "B" squad to run with 3 goalies. there was also the option given to move my son to the PeeWee C squad, which is one year above him. they only have one goalie at this point.

Have you considered the option of the PeeWee C squad? This might be the only option if your son wants equal playing time. That and you won't have to deal with that a-hole coach anymore.

[gordo67]

^^^

No matter what you do from here on out the coach is going to hold it against you and your kid. It is too bad it got to this point, and if the coach is as unfair as he seems to be, I assume it will only get worse before it gets better.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by droopydrew19

I am sure Axel can "deal with it" but why does a 10 year old have to. As a parent you have to stand up for your kid.

I have never seen a 10 year old kid say "coach why are you not playing me, this isn't fair"

I meant deal with it as in talk to the person who is in charge of this coach and get him set straight. Sorry it was not clear.

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by Dion

Have you considered the option of the PeeWee C squad? This might be the only option if your son wants equal playing time. That and you won't have to deal with that a-hole coach anymore.

yes in fact, it was discussed at great length, but as it stands right now, my son would prefer to be with his friends on the Atom A team and I cant discredit his request.
we have until January 7th to make a move if need be. I think I am going to take the approach of sitting back, watching my son plays when he does, and not say a word. if it becomes more personal with my son, then I will approach current administration, but for now, I will just keep my mouth shut and let the season run its course. hopefully the season goes quickly and we can always revisit next year as to what we do.

[return to the red]

ahh yes the joys of minor hockey. It really is to bad that so much politics weigh into a game of 9 and 10 year olds. Kind of Similar situation which actually drove me from playing hockey in Bantam (I'll save the story because no one wants to hear it)

Unfortunatly you are going to be faced with this scenario over and over again as long as parents remain head coaches and assistant coaches of teams.

The best way to approach it is to sit down and talk to your son. What is more important to him? Is it that important that he is on the "A" team?

edit: nevermind, I just read that you already had that discussion with him

[zukes]

It's tough because as much as we say it's all about fun, kids don't think that way, or at least I didn't. I wanted to win.

On the other hand, I was in a similar situation in minor hockey in Calgary. I was on the cusp of being good enough for one team and dominating the level below. I believe my dad, who had done some coaching and may have been coaching this team as well, was asked what he thought, and he asked me. I chose the higher level.

I wasn't a goalie, but I rode the pine quite often and when I was out there, I wasn't one of the better players, that's for sure. I think I did end up switching half way through the season with the leading scorer on the team below and played the year out lighting up that league.

I hope nothing similar happens to my son when the time comes. What a crappy situation.

[Flashpoint]

Tough call.

It seems to me that as a parent you want your child to get equal ice time regardless of what the team situation is. Which is fine if that is how the league is set up to be.

But my sense is that the A league is supposed to be a competitive league. So like any competitive league the primary goal is to win. And if the coach doesn't win, he will be replaced. So his job is to ice a competitive team, and balance that with the fact the kids are only 10, and that winning (while the most important thing) isn't the ONLY thing.

If you want your son to be guaranteed ice time, then I suppose you could move him to B, where I imagine competition is secondary to just playing the game.

On the other hand, not every player gets to be a star - despite what their parents want. So if you really want to help your son's growth, you wouldn't be too far off base to just take a step back and let the situation play itself out. If he earns the #1 job, then great. If he doesn't, he is probably going to learn some other important lessons. Being a good teammate is more than just being a star player. That you can help the team even if you aren't always on the ice, and that rewards can be earned by hard work when you do get a chance to play. From what you have said, it doesn't sound to me like the coach is out to "get" your boy, so I don't think you'll see him riding the pine for the rest of the season or anything.

As a parent, the tough part for you is separating your role as Dad, and your role as player "agent". I am sure at least some of your stress is transferring to your boy. Which probably makes it hard on him to focus on just the game. As a Dad, you should help him with encouragement, practice, good off ice habits etc. As his agent, it seems to me (and this is just one man's opinion), that you might want to back off the coach a little and just see what happens.

[MelBridgeman]

As someone who played at all levels of minor hockey in Calgary, including AA and AAA level and as someone who has coached at the AA level in Calgary BUT as someone with no kids...yet.. - my thought is "just typical"..the battle between what parents want for their kids and what the coach wants for the team..is always the biggest battle of the year. For coaches not only do you need to have the kids on board, but you also need the parents on board...

In this case we are dealing with a coach who also has his son on the team who happens to be the goalie battling it out with the other goalies father, quite a unique set of circumstances...

Honestly and i may be biased i think the coach tried to avoid this situation by suggesting he take one goalie, which in my experience at the top level in atom, novice and peewee is not unusual...and it's my opinion that your son (hindsight maybe) was better off on the B team anyway, where if he was good enough to play A he could of dominated and filled in at the A level where needed..

The reality is that players dont necessarily require playing at the highest level to progress especially at your sons age, i know plenty of kids who have played midget AA at 17 and still managed to make it to Junoir A, one of those kids is starting for the Junior A Royals...I played midget AA with a guy who made it to the NHL..albiet for a short career, but still plays professionally to this day.

Making it in hockey is all mental..of course you need the skill and talent to go with it...but there are going to be many times where you feel your kid gets the short end. As a coach and not as a parent, by advice is to deal with your son and not the coach..battles between coaches and parents are never good, and most times its just a matter of the parents looking our for this kids and the coach the team (although in this case he might be looking out for his son)..anyways - help you son through the adversity..encourage him to work harder in practice,be his biggest fan, remind him that not playing will build character that he will need down the road, point to backups in the NHL and how important they are and with practice and time they always get their shining moment....

I have never seen anything good come out of parents vs coaches...even if as a parent you feel you have justifications...remeber you want the kids to have fun, so why dont you have fun and try and turn this into something positive, because your son will face adversity in life and hockey when things dont seem fair and its a good time to set an example for him....

that's my 2 cents, it might change when i have a son in hockey...you never know...Top level teams always have politics and usually the mandate is to play the hot hand...especially when it comes to goaltenders...and its part of the learning experience of hockey and life

I have faced these situations as well, in my playing career, i played Novice C, scored 50 in 30 games and played on A teams up until i went to college...
I have cut a better goaltender for another goaltender with more experience..sent him back to midget B - when the AAA team lost their goaltender - i glady sent them one of my goaltenders, invited the goalie we cut back to AA and he went on to make AAA next year and Junior A the year after...why? ..mental toughness, that kid had incredible character, always got back up and worked at it when he was cut, or disapointed.... and was the reason we went on a roll at the end of the season..

good luck!

Edit: Also i should note...in the organization i coached in we kept detailed scouting reports on all players...including reports on parents..and yes when it came to picking players we had to choose between, we did sometimes refer to the information we had about the parents in making these decisions...so if this organization does the same thing...i am not sure what your sons coach will report about you (rightly or wrongly) and if it will be used against your son in the future..just a heads up

[Sample00]

MelBridgeman and Flashpoint!
some outstanding advice and I will take note of it.
as I mentioned to someone else already. I think I need to take a step back and let the cards fall where they may. I have said what I needed to say to the coach and his assistants and I dont think there is any point in belabouring it anymore.
we will just have to deal with the cards that have been dealt.
If I dont like the way something is going, I best get up and go for a walk.
this is afterall about my son and not me. and I just want whats best for him, but he may have to find his own way a bit.

[Locke]

Wow. Thats rough. I'm glad I dont have problems like that coaching a soccer team.

That said though, I still have problems with the way clubs build teams. Fairness seems like a foreign concept to some people.

[Jason14h]

Honestly and i may be biased i think the coach tried to avoid this situation by suggesting he take one goalie, which in my experience at the top level in atom, novice and peewee is not unusual...and it's my opinion that your son (hindsight maybe) was better off on the B team anyway, where if he was good enough to play A he could of dominated and filled in at the A level where needed..

DING DING DING. Seriously, you mention your son has been pulled in a few games. It is possible he was not quiet good enough for the level he is playing, and his development would have been better served on the B squad. The coaches #1 responsibility is to the TEAM, not to any individual player. This should not change if the player in the best or worst player on the team.

If the coach is hindering their teams chance of winning by playing a weaker goaltender, he is not doing his job, or is failing his team. How would your son feel if he was the #1 goalie and the #2 goalie was getting equal playing time and lowering the team's chances of winning?

Also, as a word of warning. Yes politics may play a role in team choosing, but a large percentage of the time it is warrented because coaches do not want to deal with certain parents. I have seen many a times, from low level hockey to AA/AAA kids get cut or left on lower teams because a coach does not want to deal with a certain parent

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

DING DING DING. Seriously, you mention your son has been pulled in a few games. It is possible he was not quiet good enough for the level he is playing, and his development would have been better served on the B squad. The coaches #1 responsibility is to the TEAM, not to any individual player. This should not change if the player in the best or worst player on the team.

If the coach is hindering their teams chance of winning by playing a weaker goaltender, he is not doing his job, or is failing his team. How would your son feel if he was the #1 goalie and the #2 goalie was getting equal playing time and lowering the team's chances of winning?

Also, as a word of warning. Yes politics may play a role in team choosing, but a large percentage of the time it is warrented because coaches do not want to deal with certain parents. I have seen many a times, from low level hockey to AA/AAA kids get cut or left on lower teams because a coach does not want to deal with a certain parent

he's been pulled in two and to be quite honest, damn i love using that schtick, in the first one that he got pulled, I personally would have yanked him sooner.
however, he has played and played well when he played in some games. this is his first crack at the A level. He definately needs to work on consistency.

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by Sample00

MelBridgeman and Flashpoint!
some outstanding advice and I will take note of it.
as I mentioned to someone else already. I think I need to take a step back and let the cards fall where they may. I have said what I needed to say to the coach and his assistants and I dont think there is any point in belabouring it anymore.
we will just have to deal with the cards that have been dealt.
If I dont like the way something is going, I best get up and go for a walk.
this is afterall about my son and not me. and I just want whats best for him, but he may have to find his own way a bit.

MelBridgeman did emphasize a very good point in that the Parents Vs. Coaches issue is a difficult one. I coached a Bantam 1 team and easily the most difficult thing to deal with was the parents. I actually had a fairly significant run-in with a parent who also happened to be an ex-NHLer. I lost a lot of respect for him.

Your situation is difficult because the other goalie is also the head coach's son and that creates a fairly significant conflict of interest. Ultimately, at the age of 9 and 10, goalies really shouldn't get pulled. It should be on a rotation; in AA and AAA we rotated goalies all the time. It's good for the forwards and defense to get used to playing in front of different goalies and it's important for the the goalie's development as well. They'll experience all kinds of situations that way.

I never minded talking with parents as long as they are level-headed and come to talk about the validity of their play. This is only if I really need to though, as ultimately the coaches should be talking with the kids and that's it.

One idea that may work with your son's team is having the coaches perform mid-term evaluations during one practice. Let the kids hear it right from the coaches what they have been doing well and what they need to work on. We told the parents they could sit and LISTEN if they really felt the need to, but encouraged them to let their kids tell them afterwards. It's important for the kids to learn to talk with the coaches and not always get supported by their parents.

We also told the kids at the end of the mid-term reviews to talk about it with their parents if they wanted to.

Unfortunately, hockey politics exist all the time and it is a really difficult situation to deal with. As long as everyone is respectful of each other's interests and treats one another with dignity, then hopefully the situation will work out alright. Either way, this is a good learning experience for your son and hopefully he takes something positive out of it.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

If the coach is hindering their teams chance of winning by playing a weaker goaltender, he is not doing his job, or is failing his team. How would your son feel if he was the #1 goalie and the #2 goalie was getting equal playing time and lowering the team's chances of winning?

A coach's main objective in atom hockey isn't to win the most games, it's to teach the players so that they can improve as much as possible.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

A coach's main objective in atom hockey isn't to win the most games, it's to teach the players so that they can improve as much as possible.

Depends, if its the rep or 'A' team there may be a different philosophy...

The teaching is done in practice....

It is the age old debate..the reality in hockey is that coaches coach to win at most levels, when do you start exposing kids to that philosophy? The top teams in any age group or lets say atom and up, you can start to get away with that...at atom they are at most 2 years away from AA level hockey - where its highly competitive...

Also winning is fun...trust me if you arent winning..the kids and the parents on on your back - its a no win for the coaches..

Edit: i should mention the one thing that has changed big time since i played is the fact it seems skill developement is creeping from minor hockey and is now the responsibility of the player and the parent...skills are now being developed in High School Programs (Central Memorial, The Edge), hockey schools and private tutoring...

[tkflames]

I don't mean to sound even remotely disrespectful here, but honestly you need to think about the factors of this that you can control. Having played highly political competitive sport for most of my life, I hope you will at minimum consider the following advice. The same argument you are using to support why the coach should play your son (its hockey for 9 and 10 year olds) could be used against you just the same. If I was you, I would take this as a learning experience and realize that maybe your son being in division 2 as the top goalie would do better for his confidence and fun then him having to be in division 1. There will be plenty of times in life where you qualify for a better position, but should take the one that is better for you, and that may be a valuable lesson for him to take out of next year. Its the same argument we make for Curtis McElhinney (and other junior Calgary backups), would they be better off learning to be the best at the level they are playing or sitting on the bench for a team they qualify for as second or third in line.

My thoughts, but I hope you at least consider them before weighing the importance of Div 1 at the next evaluation camp.