Man dies after being tasered in Vancouver Airport

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Really?

See, here is the thing -- I've seen police deal with pissed off, drunk, belligerent, non-listening people lots of times. On tv and even in reality -- and you know what? They don't club them, zap them or shoot them every time. They do other things -- they knock them down, they tackle them, they use their other training. They don't use weapons every single time someone doesn't do as they say. They'd be reloading guns, cleaning blood off batons and recharging the zapper after every shift.

I think that it is important that this took place in an airport. Not on the street or in a bar. We're talking about a guy going haywire in an airport. That just isn't tolerated. White or black or eastern european, you don't go bananas in airports and throw computers. Cops will take you down.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by icarus

Wow, this solves everything. Since you like this link so much you should send it to the Vancouver RCMP so that they won't need to investigate. Case closed!

Is this remark supposed to make some sort of point, or rebut what I said in any way? Because it really seems to contribute nothing whatsoever.

Well, I don't know if you are referring to me, but I haven't said it was inappropriate use of force. I have said all along that it MIGHT have been. Seems there are a lot of people here however that think it is pretty cut-and-dried that there was no inappropriate use of force, because the police can never do anything wrong and this guy deserved everything he got. Thanks for the thick head comment, btw, adds a lot of value to the discussion.

What a great educator you are, Socrates reincarnate.

Unfortunately, despite all your pedagogic prowess you seem to have lost grip on the actual discussion. This is not a police brutality thread. Some of us have discussed the possibility that the reasonable use of force may have been exceeded, subject to the evidence and findings of an investigation. Others seem content to conclude that the police did no wrong, without having all the evidence or investigation results. There are a lot of people who seem to think the police are infallible, that there is no need to inquire about their actions, and that anyone who dares question their actions is anti-cop. The detailed taser description was fascinating, but really has little to do with the matter of whether the cops in this particular instance did right or wrong.

By the way, how did I use section 26 to further an agenda? O great Prometheus who brought the Criminal Code to us mere mortals, since we missed your point about bringing up this section, please tell us what your intentions were!

Do you consider me to be part of this 'anti-cop movement' you describe? Can I consider you to be part of an 'anti-free-thought movement'? Since you think cops can do no wrong and their actions should be free from censure maybe you would prefer life in a police state like Burma or North Korea? I for one like living in a country where we have Charter-protected rights and values, where there exists the Rule of Law, and where authority is capable of being freely questioned.

copy and paste this to wikipedia as an example of Hypocrisy

I also see you have nothing but criticism and drivel and no solutions

this drivel requires no further comment

Originally Posted by icarus

Wow, this solves everything. Since you like this link so much you should send it to the Vancouver RCMP so that they won't need to investigate. Case closed!

Is this remark supposed to make some sort of point, or rebut what I said in any way? Because it really seems to contribute nothing whatsoever.

Well, I don't know if you are referring to me, but I haven't said it was inappropriate use of force. I have said all along that it MIGHT have been. Seems there are a lot of people here however that think it is pretty cut-and-dried that there was no inappropriate use of force, because the police can never do anything wrong and this guy deserved everything he got. Thanks for the thick head comment, btw, adds a lot of value to the discussion.

What a great educator you are, Socrates reincarnate.

Unfortunately, despite all your pedagogic prowess you seem to have lost grip on the actual discussion. This is not a police brutality thread. Some of us have discussed the possibility that the reasonable use of force may have been exceeded, subject to the evidence and findings of an investigation. Others seem content to conclude that the police did no wrong, without having all the evidence or investigation results. There are a lot of people who seem to think the police are infallible, that there is no need to inquire about their actions, and that anyone who dares question their actions is anti-cop. The detailed taser description was fascinating, but really has little to do with the matter of whether the cops in this particular instance did right or wrong.

By the way, how did I use section 26 to further an agenda? O great Prometheus who brought the Criminal Code to us mere mortals, since we missed your point about bringing up this section, please tell us what your intentions were!

Do you consider me to be part of this 'anti-cop movement' you describe? Can I consider you to be part of an 'anti-free-thought movement'? Since you think cops can do no wrong and their actions should be free from censure maybe you would prefer life in a police state like Burma or North Korea? I for one like living in a country where we have Charter-protected rights and values, where there exists the Rule of Law, and where authority is capable of being freely questioned.

You lost me at pedo-whatever. But yes, I think you are very, very smart.

God forbid someone attempts to add something more than just isolating one word or phrase from anothers post and typing some witty comment in an attempt to disprove it or make you look smarter then you really are. I guess I figured that I could shed some light on the when, how, and why a taser is deployed. Apparently it was completely irrelevant. Apparently you took it as an insult. So you decided to use big words and read the thesauras. Good on ya. I, for one, am a believer.

[Shawnski]

OK, so we are all at a CP get together.

I snap at icarus, Lanny, Phaneuf3, and Rouge. Icarus is an innocent bystander, Lanny is just in the way, Phaneuf3 is a waste of a heartbeat and Rouge is my focus for all that is wrong in that situation; the ultimate evil.

But I am ticked, and you don't know why. I start to throw chairs and smash a computer. Rouge, the barmaid, hypothetically, is in the line of fire. Phaneuf3 is sidekick, still learning the trade, (but never intelligent enough to attain that position), Lanny, well he is the supervisor who just happens to be there at the time to see both of his employees in trouble. Icarus is the customer ordering a drink right where this is happening....

So folks, I have just snapped and started mayhem. Bar security has not been able to calm me down. RCMP are called in, and they too, cannot calm me down. How safe do you feel throughout this? If you are there, what do you want to see happen? Hmmmm?

Once tasered, and restrained, do you not feel safe again?

Riddle me that. Then, put it into context of the airport.

[Dion]

Her cellphone caught footage of the man, a Caucasian in his late 30s to early 40s, pacing back and forth and visibly upset. She claims he also smelled of liquor.

"What I saw was really horrible," said Ashrafinia. "In front of my eyes, a human being lost his life."

The RCMP has said it does not believe the man's death was related to the Taser, and that the man was shocked twice.

But Ashrafinia alleges the Tasers were used more than twice.

"At one point, two officers - one here, one on his right, one on his left - they Tasered him both at the same time," she said. "That is what really disturbed me."

She said the man then bent over and collapsed. "I looked at the guy, he turned blue," she said.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...015?hub=Canada

Originally Posted by Dion

Her cellphone caught footage of the man, a Caucasian in his late 30s to early 40s, pacing back and forth and visibly upset. She claims he also smelled of liquor.

"What I saw was really horrible," said Ashrafinia. "In front of my eyes, a human being lost his life."

The RCMP has said it does not believe the man's death was related to the Taser, and that the man was shocked twice.

But Ashrafinia alleges the Tasers were used more than twice.

"At one point, two officers - one here, one on his right, one on his left - they Tasered him both at the same time," she said. "That is what really disturbed me."

She said the man then bent over and collapsed. "I looked at the guy, he turned blue," she said.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...015?hub=Canada

Tasers can be used more then once for compliance. It was explained earlier but according to Icarus that was irrelevant.

Further, one can't get more then 50,000 volts regardless of how many tasers are actually used on him. What would happen from my knowledge is that it would simply create more contact points thus creating a wider area to arc. Once the nervous system is disrupted, it's an all or none response.

Anyway, I am interested to read the eye witness accounts.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

copy and paste this to wikipedia as an example of Hypocrisy

I also see you have nothing but criticism and trivel and no solutions

this thrivel requires no further comment

It seems posting links with no further explanation has become fashionable or is just the refuge of those who can't forumalate an argument. It seems you like throwing labels around without support, but if you tell me what exactly you are accusing me of being a hypocrite about I will defend myself. My 'trivel/thrivel' does require further comment because you haven't really demonstrated it to be drivel.

Anyway you asked for solutions, so here's my solution: don't claim that the cops did nothing wrong before you know whether they did or not, and stop attacking people as 'anti-cop' who take this approach.

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

You lost me at pedo-whatever. But yes, I think you are very, very smart.

God forbid someone attempts to add something more than just isolating one word or phrase from anothers post and typing some witty comment in an attempt to disprove it or make you look smarter then you really are. I guess I figured that I could shed some light on the when, how, and why a taser is deployed. Apparently it was completely irrelevant. Apparently you took it as an insult. So you decided to use big words and read the thesauras. Good on ya. I, for one, am a believer.

Sorry if you lack the vocabulary to follow along, that's not my problem. But don't try to belittle everyone on the board by repeatedly claiming to 'educate' them. It is insulting.

As for isolating one word or phrase from another's post, we already covered that and I provided the context for the one occasion that I quoted just one sentence of jolinar's post. Now you're bringing it up again, and claiming I am trying to look smarter than I really am and that I am looking things up in a thesauras [sic]. This reeks of desperation. If you have an argument to make, make it.

As for the taser discussion, yes it was irrelevant because it doesn't shed light on the events that occurred in YVR the other day. A description of what a taser is and what a taser does does not shed light on what actually happened in the airport. Sorry. I wasn't insulted by the description though, I was more insulted by you claiming to educate us as though you have all the answers and everyone else is clueless.

Originally Posted by Shawnski

OK, so we are all at a CP get together.

I snap at icarus, Lanny, Phaneuf3, and Rouge. Icarus is an innocent bystander, Lanny is just in the way, Phaneuf3 is a waste of a heartbeat and Rouge is my focus for all that is wrong in that situation; the ultimate evil.

But I am ticked, and you don't know why. I start to throw chairs and smash a computer. Rouge, the barmaid, hypothetically, is in the line of fire. Phaneuf3 is sidekick, still learning the trade, (but never intelligent enough to attain that position), Lanny, well he is the supervisor who just happens to be there at the time to see both of his employees in trouble. Icarus is the customer ordering a drink right where this is happening....

So folks, I have just snapped and started mayhem. Bar security has not been able to calm me down. RCMP are called in, and they too, cannot calm me down. How safe do you feel throughout this? If you are there, what do you want to see happen? Hmmmm?

Once tasered, and restrained, do you not feel safe again?

Riddle me that. Then, put it into context of the airport.

Well since my name is mentioned I will respond. I would like to see the police use the appropriate procedure and force to contain you. We don't know if that's what happened here. It may well have been, but then again it may not have been. However if one dares to suggest it may not have been then one is obviously a cop-hater.

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Tasers can be used more then once for compliance. It was explained earlier but according to Icarus that was irrelevant.

Yes, the discussion was irrelevant because what the instruction manual says does not necessarily mean that's how it was used. But out of curiousity, where did you say tasers can be used more than once for compliance? Anyway, this witness description doesn't say a taser was used more than once (i.e. in serial), it says two were used at the same time (i.e. in parallel).

[Phaneuf3]

lol, this topic's still going, eh? thought people would have tired of it by now.

Originally Posted by Shawnski

OK, so we are all at a CP get together.

I snap at icarus, Lanny, Phaneuf3, and Rouge. Icarus is an innocent bystander, Lanny is just in the way, Phaneuf3 is a waste of a heartbeat and Rouge is my focus for all that is wrong in that situation; the ultimate evil.

But I am ticked, and you don't know why. I start to throw chairs and smash a computer. Rouge, the barmaid, hypothetically, is in the line of fire. Phaneuf3 is sidekick, still learning the trade, (but never intelligent enough to attain that position), Lanny, well he is the supervisor who just happens to be there at the time to see both of his employees in trouble. Icarus is the customer ordering a drink right where this is happening....

So folks, I have just snapped and started mayhem. Bar security has not been able to calm me down. RCMP are called in, and they too, cannot calm me down. How safe do you feel throughout this? If you are there, what do you want to see happen? Hmmmm?

Once tasered, and restrained, do you not feel safe again?

Riddle me that. Then, put it into context of the airport.

well, since i've been specifically named here and its been a bit of a slow morning at work, i'll come back for one post.
as i've said, yes - its ok for police to use force if its used correctly and its justified. in the case of this airport, i've said i think it was probably justified. my only argument is against the people that are against questioning cops' actions and policies.

turn your little story around, say the guy being loud and obnoxious was someone you care about - brother, dad, son, uncle, second cousin twice removed - you fill in the blank. maybe he died, maybe he was just injured, maybe nothing happened at all in terms of unintended consequences - would you say its worth looking into how the police responded?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

As I stated earlier, I am not against the use of tasers, in the right circumstances. I think that officers definitely need more training and need to understand when and where to use the devices. I don't think anyone pulls these things out and thinks about the potential problems these things could cause (it has been stated repeatedly that Canadian officers are not informed of the potential risks with the devices, while I know officers in academy here in Arizona are told of the risks to the tased). I think they are being relied upon a little too often when good old fashion grappling can control an individual just as effectively. I also have found that reasoning and cohersion are two tools that have also been deminished in the arsenal of tools available to the officer. Patience and a calm demeanor go a long way in diffusing the most tense of situations.

Now, just to throw some more fuel on the fire...

An indepth series of stories that will bring further questions into tasers.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localne...aser_0530.html

An interesting story about two tasers being used simultaneously on a calf, the animal dying.

http://www.wsba.org/lawyers/groups/a...imallaw507.pdf

A long article filled with different instances of use and misuse.

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/taser...e23jun05.shtml

An article about a 65 year old wheelchair bound woman who was tasered to death. Also has some interesting information in it about other incidents.

http://www.newsinferno.com/archives/1116

Here's a listing of 71 deaths as a result of confrontations with police and tasers, originally published by the Arizona Republic.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/200...7/16981891.php

Finally, the latest and greatest catch-all excuse that is being used to explain the "unexplainable" deaths; excited delerium. This non-existent medical condition has been registered as cause of death in many instances of unexplainable in-custody-deaths.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=7622314

A beginers guide to ED

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium

[Phaneuf3]

ok, i had promised myself i wasn't gonna post here again but i was browsing fark and found this little story and got to wondering, what would happen if an infant was (accidentally) shocked by a taser?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...A14_hThem37577

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I always chuckle when I hear an officer speak about "excited delirium" because really it can be used to describe anything and essentially with very little further questioning it seems to me as an uneducated observer that excited delirium is essentially jargon for police actions coupled with other circumstances resulted in someone in custody dying. Would the subject have died if not for police intervention, likely not... but was the police intervention the reason for the death, that is a grey area but in my opinion the answer is no... the medical issue is the underlying reason (be it drug overdose, undiagnosed/unknown heart disease, pulmonary embolism, etc, etc there are a million and one of them)

Taser's are an interesting problem because they are marketed as a non-lethal way for police officers to get control of a situation, and that is what they are for the most part. However it seems from the news stories as well as through analytical evidence from police officers I have talked to, that they are being used in situations where it is not necessary to do so and more training seems to be needed as to the risk vs. reward.

Well, I am spent.

Again, apparently boards like this aren't for any sort of education or for others to share any sort of expertise. Apparently it is insulting. So Icarus, how bout you stay in your little bubble, ignore others attempts to shed light on the subject (whether you think it it's relevant or not) and I'll read up on pedo-whatever.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Well, I am spent.

Again, apparently boards like this aren't for any sort of education or for others to share any sort of expertise. Apparently it is insulting. So Icarus, how bout you stay in your little bubble, ignore others attempts to shed light on the subject (whether you think it it's relevant or not) and I'll read up on pedo-whatever.

I too am spent.

I guess some people are willing to acknowledge this existence of two possibilities--that the police followed procedure or that the police did not follow procedure--and there are those who are only willing to acknowledge one. It is sadly comical that those who choose to acknowledge only one possibility accuse others of being in a bubble.

I'm sorry I did not appreciate your expertise and educational services more. Perhaps there are others here who will enrol in one of your courses.

[longsuffering]

Interesting as more facts come in that the unquestioning supporters of the tazering have gone to ground?

With conflicting witness reports, including a remark that the RCMP didn't seem too interested in taking witness statements, and more information about the man's background and circumstance I'd think some posters might considering revising their stances to at least acknowledge the possibility that the police used excessive force in this instance.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew..._name=&no_ads=

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...ub=CTVNewsAt11

And does anyone find it curious that there doesn't seem to be any security video? Seems odd that the Vancouver Airport doesn't have video cameras covering the International Arrivals hall.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Interesting as more facts come in that the unquestioning supporters of the tazering have gone to ground?

With conflicting witness reports, including a remark that the RCMP didn't seem too interested in taking witness statements, and more information about the man's background and circumstance I'd think some posters might considering revising their stances to at least acknowledge the possibility that the police used excessive force in this instance.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew..._name=&no_ads=

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...ub=CTVNewsAt11

And does anyone find it curious that there doesn't seem to be any security video? Seems odd that the Vancouver Airport doesn't have video cameras covering the International Arrivals hall.

Huh? Of course there is possibility they used excessive force. The people defending the taser weren't denying this fact. Heck, one of em could have pressed his knee too hard into the guys back/neck which caused everything. We have NO IDEA what happened. Anything based on a news report about camera footage or lack of witness statements is just speculation. Your last paragraph makes it sound like a conspiracy.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Huh? Of course there is possibility they used excessive force. The people defending the taser weren't denying this fact. Heck, one of em could have pressed his knee too hard into the guys back/neck which caused everything. We have NO IDEA what happened. Anything based on a news report about camera footage or lack of witness statements is just speculation. Your last paragraph makes it sound like a conspiracy.

One of us has a reading comprehension problem because I read dozens of posts that said the police were justified in their actions, that everything was by the book, etc.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

One of us has a reading comprehension problem because I read dozens of posts that said the police were justified in their actions, that everything was by the book, etc.

I guess I skipped the mass quantity of BS to get here then.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by fotze

What the hell is thrivel?

lol its a typo

[Shawnski]

Bumping to add new info.

Originally Posted by Dion

Her cellphone caught footage of the man, a Caucasian in his late 30s to early 40s, pacing back and forth and visibly upset. She claims he also smelled of liquor.

Well, according to this report out today....

Originally Posted by GlobeAndMail

Test results show a man who died after a confrontation with police at Vancouver airport had no drugs or alcohol in his system.

Originally Posted by GlobeAndMail

A preliminary autopsy report showed there were no signs of trauma, disease or any other obvious cause of death.

[jolinar of malkshor]

I was listening to the ROy Greene show and apparently some guy video taped the whole thing. 15 minutes worth of tape. The RCMP asked him that day during the investigation if they could borrow the tape. The guy agreed as long as they gave it back within 48 hrs. They haven't given it back yet and the guy is now suing the RCMP for the return of his property. There must be something on that tape that the police don't want people to know about.