Operation Christmas Child - Make An Informed Decision

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by troutman

Who is saying they should get nothing? How about giving the gifts - hold the religion?

Maybe you are overlooking the fact that giving gifts in the month of December is a very ummm...CHRISTIAN tradition?

Obviously, given the lack of non-denominational groups doing the same thing (the shoebox full of gifts) either during December, or year-round, would point to the fact that religion, in fact, plays a role in the motivation here.

Why would you give gifts to an anonymous kid at all, if not due to some underlying moral convictions and belief about why things are the way they are, and why certain things should be done? These people do it in a Christian context, that's all, and that's how they explain it, straight up.

So - more to my point, is that all altruistic actions imply a faith and belief in _something_ (that or they aren't altruistic, if you just do it to make yourself feel better, you've missed the point in the first place), so really, all of these programs can be described as being "religious" in a broader sense.

[Phanuthier]

Wow, I haven't done Operation Shoe Box in a couple years (since I came to university).

Thanks for the reminder, gotta pick one of those little buggers up. One of the funner things to do to get into the spirit of things.

If you wouldn't have reminded me, I would have forgotten again this year.

[OracleOfCalgary]

So what all of you are saying is that you don't care if this is a big waste of time, energy, and CO2, it makes you feel good to pack your little boxes and convert a few savages to Jesus and that's all that counts. I will have to give them credit, at least they are making it very clear now that these boxes are used in conjuction with an evangelical cruisade. When my sister had participated in this program in the past, she was compeltely unaware what they actual intent of these boxes was.

These people don't need a bunch of Chinese manufactured junk, they need the money flowing into their own economy. All of these things can be purchased locally and dollars spent locally have a multiplier effect that ripples through the economy. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by OracleOfCalgary

So what all of you are saying is that you don't care if this is a big waste of time, energy, and CO2, it makes you feel good to pack your little boxes and convert a few savages to Jesus and that's all that counts. I will have to give them credit, at least they are making it very clear now that these boxes are used in conjuction with an evangelical cruisade. When my sister had participated in this program in the past, she was compeltely unaware what they actual intent of these boxes was.

These people don't need a bunch of Chinese manufactured junk, they need the money flowing into their own economy. All of these things can be purchased locally and dollars spent locally have a multiplier effect that ripples through the economy. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Give a child a gift and you let him... smile.

I'm as much a secular humanist liberatarian as anybody, but this is what happens when people become so selfish and self-righteous about their own "enlightened" beliefs that they'll deprive people of things they have nothing to do with. You have a good academic point, that these people really need is a decent economy rather than toys...but then again maybe as a kid you recieved a baby bonus cheque or maybe a life insurance policy in your stocking instead of that Lego set you wanted for Christmas?

Who are you to judge what is a waste of C02 or not? Sorry I didn't realize you were the international arbiter of "wastes of time" and the universal authority on what savages need the most. Do you really think an orphaned kid in the war-torn Balkans or in the middle of Africa can really go out themselves and purchase clean paper and crayons? A teddy bear? There's a point where intellectual thought about welfare and humanitarian aid gets too academic and everybody becomes a statistic and you forget what a difference you can make in the life of one person by giving them something to feel prideful about.

[Slava]

I do think that the point of giving a gift is not to try to indoctrinate as you do so...I would never give my grandmother (extremely religious) a copy of "god is not great: how religion poisons everything" as a gift...its not only the thought that counts!

That being said, OCC does good overseas. There is another organization that a friend of mine does a lot of work for as well, without the religious attachment (to my knowledge).

[MoneyGuy]

The OP sounds like a Christian hater. My family has taken part in this program for years, and my daughter does so now as an adult. While it could be argued that it might be a more efficient use of resouces to donate money instead of something that has to be shipped, these shoeboxes are donated by people who care about people in other countries where people have nothing by people who are more fortunate.

There is nothing wrong with this program. It's an excellent opportunity for people with lots to share with those who do not. Geez, man.

[tkflames]

As a side note with any organization the important thing is knowing what your putting money into. Every charity will have its benefits but there is a lot of merit to knowing the motivations of the organization. Franklin Graham the International President of Samaritan Purse (Operation Christmas Child) has been quoted as saying things like

Islam is a "VERY WICKED AND EVIL RELIGION"
and something to the effect of "the USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS on countries like Iraq and Afghanistan is acceptable"

(I didn't find the exact quotes but here is a CBC article making reference to it http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...m-protest.html)


Again its unfortunate that poor children are caught in the middle of this debate, but I agree with the original poster that your money would be better spent supporting the work itself vs. supporting a reverend with an agenda...

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Slava

I would never give my grandmother (extremely religious) a copy of "god is not great: how religion poisons everything" as a gift...

Right, but once again- is she in a position where she could not afford to buy herself a book?

Here's a better anaolgy for those of us who have never been in the situation that these kids are in. If you were in the middle of the ocean, on a liferaft, no food or water, had been there for 6 days like that. Then a ship pulls up and pulls you out of the water. It's an ship full of Muslims, they explain it Ramadan (spelling appologies), and they are fasting. You are welcome on the ship, but must pray with them for 3 hours, then you can join them for a feast. Would you ask them to lower you and your liferaft back into the water?

[Slava]

^^yeah, you're right. My analogy is kind of a red herring. I think that these programs are good...I do wish that religion was not as involved, but the alternative is no program (in most cases).

[photon]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Maybe you are overlooking the fact that giving gifts in the month of December is a very ummm...CHRISTIAN tradition?

Well actually no, it predates Christianity by quite a bit. Celebrating Jesus' birthday on December 25th was done specifically so that Romans who had feasts celebrating the god of agriculture and could switch to Christianity without loosing their feasts and time of celebration.

Celebrating in December far predates Christianity.

So - more to my point, is that all altruistic actions imply a faith and belief in _something_ (that or they aren't altruistic, if you just do it to make yourself feel better, you've missed the point in the first place), so really, all of these programs can be described as being "religious" in a broader sense.

That's silly, there are many altruistic deeds and organizations that have no religious factor in them. Altruism can exist perfectly fine without faith.

That said, as long as they are up front with what they are doing then I have no problem with it, though I don't really agree with it (meaning if I was setting up a charity to give gifts to needy children, I wouldn't try to use that to spread my personal beliefs, it seems distasteful to me).

People can then decide if they want to support the program, or choose another program that doesn't use their aid packages to try to convert people.

[Jayems]

wrong thread.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Ummm guys,

Operation Christmas Child

Operation Christmas Child

Operation CHRISTMAS Child

The whole Christian religion thingy is kinda right there in the project. If it was Operation Hanukkah Child I'd expect they'd have a Jewish mandate and slant to what they're doing. If it was Operation Ramadan Child, I'd assume Muslim. If it was Operation Child Aid, I'd assume non-religious.

If you're upset that Operation Christmas Child is organized by a Christian group, you really should start paying more attention to celebrated holidays and where they come from.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Ummm guys,

Operation Christmas Child

Operation Christmas Child

Operation CHRISTMAS Child

The whole Christian religion thingy is kinda right there in the project. If it was Operation Hanukkah Child I'd expect they'd have a Jewish mandate and slant to what they're doing. If it was Operation Ramadan Child, I'd assume Muslim. If it was Operation Child Aid, I'd assume non-religious.

If you're upset that Operation Christmas Child is organized by a Christian group, you really should start paying more attention to celebrated holidays and where they come from.

!!!!
i am honestly quite shocked. shocked and appalled. if i had known it was christians that were helping these kids i never would have donated.


/sarcasm



edit: has anyone found out just how preachy they're getting? i mean, if they're simply explaining what christmas is and telling them the christmas story... is that so horrible? (and this explanation wouldn't be all that unreasonable)

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

!!!!
i am honestly quite shocked. shocked and appalled. if i had known it was christians that were helping these kids i never would have donated.


/sarcasm



edit: has anyone found out just how preachy they're getting? i mean, if they're simply explaining what christmas is and telling them the christmas story... is that so horrible? (and this explanation wouldn't be all that unreasonable)

Well from the web page Q&A this is the Mission of OCC:

"Q. What is the mission of Operation Christmas Child?
A. The mission of Operation Christmas Child is to demonstrate God's love in a tangible way to needy children around the world, and together with the local church worldwide, to share the Good News of Jesus Christ."

This certainly seems reasonable to me. They give the information to the child and the child ultimately decides what to do with it at some point in their life.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by OracleOfCalgary

So what all of you are saying is that you don't care if this is a big waste of time, energy, and CO2, it makes you feel good to pack your little boxes and convert a few savages to Jesus and that's all that counts. I will have to give them credit, at least they are making it very clear now that these boxes are used in conjuction with an evangelical cruisade. When my sister had participated in this program in the past, she was compeltely unaware what they actual intent of these boxes was.

These people don't need a bunch of Chinese manufactured junk, they need the money flowing into their own economy. All of these things can be purchased locally and dollars spent locally have a multiplier effect that ripples through the economy. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

You have got to be the most arrogant, selfish 'prick' I have ever seen post here at CP.

'savages'...is that what idiots like you call them these days?

wow.

give me a blue square...I don't give a crap.

sheesh.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

Well from the web page Q&A this is the Mission of OCC:

"Q. What is the mission of Operation Christmas Child?
A. The mission of Operation Christmas Child is to demonstrate God's love in a tangible way to needy children around the world, and together with the local church worldwide, to share the Good News of Jesus Christ."

This certainly seems reasonable to me. They give the information to the child and the child ultimately decides what to do with it at some point in their life.

To some people I guess that is 'indoctrinating' them.

I can understand where Troutman or even Photon is coming from. At least they don't refer to these poor children living in poverty, disease and war as 'savages.'

[MarchHare]

You have got to be the most arrogant, selfish 'prick' I have ever seen post here at CP.

'savages'...is that what idiots like you call them these days?

wow.

To some people I guess that is 'indoctrinating' them.

I can understand where Troutman or even Photon is coming from. At least they don't refer to these poor children living in poverty, disease and war as 'savages.'

He was obviously being sarcastic by employing the exact term the very Christian missionaries you're defending used to describe their targets of conversion in "uncivilized" countries decades ago. Take a look at this article from the New York Times, circa 1908, to see what he was getting at:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...669D946997D6CF

SPENT FIFTY YEARS TEACHING SAVAGES; Venerable Missionary Tells of His Long Service in the Gilbert Islands. WIFE AND CHILD DIED THERE Foreign Mission Convention Delegates Cheer Aged Mr. Bingham When He Says He's Going Back.

October 16, 1908, Friday

A thousand missionaries and delegates to the American Board of Foreign Missions applauded enthusiastically at the Brooklyn Academy of Music yesterday morning when the Rev. Hiram Bingham, 80 years old, the second eldest missionary in the board's service, stood weak and trembling on the platform and told his remarkable story of more than half a century's devotion to the cause of Christianity in the uncivilized Pacific Isles.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by troutman

Who is saying they should get nothing? How about giving the gifts - hold the religion?

There are plenty of non-religious and secular groups that give aid all over the world. Indoctrinating poor vulnerable children to any particular religion is seen as a form of child abuse by many (ex. Dawkins). I wouldn't go that far - I think children should be taught about all religions. Missionaries don't do that though.

A true gift has no catch attached to it.

I dont think the Operation Christmas Child organization is guarding their turf with any sort of armed security force. I'm sure any one of these "plenty of non-religious and secular groups" is perfectly free to do good in any way they see fit, including this way.

That being said, I havent seen it.

Thats really the question isnt it though? Is this really a 'catch?' Are these kids being held forcibly against their will to listen to preaching a la: Clockwork Orange?

I'll be the first to admit that I dont know, but somehow I very strongly doubt it.

In the end though, I dont think these people should be condemned for their deeds for its admirable enough in its altruism. It stuns me that these people provide a method for giving, and then are questioned and condemned for the manner in which they provide it.

I'm not trying to come off as a pro-religious indoctrination kind of person because I personally dont believe in that, I simply cant believe the Venom with which this organization is attacked by our resident Oracle for their generosity.

Troutman, I agree with you, I really do, I believe that every child, actually every person, should be educated about every religion and then be free to determine their faith for themselves.

But thats a really naive goal, we're talking about kids in areas that are so under-privileged that they're getting toothpaste and paper in shoeboxes, when we're talking about a goal or ideal that a large majority of highly-educated adults in our well-off western world havent acheived, but these kids ought to. Its not realistic.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

He was obviously being sarcastic by employing the exact term the very Christian missionaries you're defending used to describe their targets of conversion in "uncivilized" countries decades ago. Take a look at this article from the New York Times, circa 1908, to see what he was getting at:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...669D946997D6CF

I never defended 'any' sort of religious work. I defended the idea of 'giving'...and being helpful to those in need.

I don't give a crap about some article from 1908...this is almost 100 years later...and I should imagine we'd be more civilized and not refer to someone less fortunate than us as 'savages.'

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

It is a reputable organization....with the right to help these children.

The 'religious' aspect, and whether it is good or bad is debatable.

OCC has done a lot of good over the years.

BTW, they do more than give out gifts...so I have no idea what the hell you're complaining about.

Sad how those of us here on NA will complain about an organization that went above and beyond your normal charity organization and started something different. Sure in the bigger scheme of things these 'gifts' might mean nothing to YOU....but they sure as heck mean something to the kids receiving them.

Well said Azure!