Man dies after being tasered in Vancouver Airport

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

using a taser is an appropriate response to say.... a student asking a question at a Q&A session or someone forgetting their ID card while at the library then I'm quite frightened that you're in law enforcement.

Oh good lord....here we go again. Yup they all got tasered for all those reasons. Had nothign to do with there actions. Everyone is at fault except them. Yup

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

In law, everyone is equal before the law.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nG4nbAUG9Kg
if those people weren't cops, would only 4 go to trial and only 1 get convicted?

everyone's equal before the law - but some are more equal.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nG4nbAUG9Kg
if those people weren't cops, would only 4 go to trial and only 1 get convicted?

everyone's equal before the law - but some are more equal.

Comeon man....this argument could be made for anyone. Lets see....OJ Simpson?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Comeon man....this argument could be made for anyone. Lets see....OJ Simpson?

are you trying to prove my point even more that investigations and the justice system are often flawed based on factors like status and occupation? cause you're doing a bang up job.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by icarus

LOL. I have no clue what I am saying, yet you claim there was no indication of excessive force when this guy ended up dead for resisting arrest? To quote one of your phrases "Hello pot, this is kettle." It is a bit unusual for people to die from being tasered; this is enough for a prima facie argument for excessive force.

You're making it sound like the cops killed this guy because he was resisting arrest where infact it was through a adverse reaction to one of the legalized tools available to officers. Are all surgeons who had a patient die from complications also killers as well then? the patient shouldn't have died but for some unforeseen reason did.

The fact that this guy died and/or this guy was on drugs should not at all be factors in whether the use of the taser was inappropriate, yet for some reason those 2 arguments keep getting repeated over and over.

There are people who are tasered inappropriately and are fine and we don't here a thing about it. Yet everytime there is a problem with the taser it gets reported in the news and the same people every time regardless of the circumstances come out and say it was inappropriate use of force because the guy died. Get it through your thick heads that the result of the use of the taser has all to do with whether it was used properly/appropriately.

I'm getting pretty tired of the "its always some elses fault" attitude that is becoming so prevalent in our society today. Maybe i'm just jaded after the sudanese community was up in arms after that guy was shot and subsequently died after STABBING a police officer. Take responsibility for your own actions FFS.

Originally Posted by Dan02

that guy was shot and subsequently died after STABBING a police officer. Take responsibility for your own actions FFS.

I think I read on this board that the officer should have just tried to 'wing' him- did he really have to shoot to kill him.... damn, I had a good laugh about that.

Anyway, I won't bother to address all the posts since coming back but I will try to educate.

Tasers are an authorized NON-LETHAL use of force option. Generally, they can be deployed in 2 different fashions- 1) Direction application on the taser itself to the subject 2) Actually firing the taser probes from a distance into the subject.

The first method is simply an attempt to gain compliance through pain. The second method uses both pain compliance and a disruption of the nervous system as 50K volt are arched between the 2 probes. With the first method, the majority of subjects react strongly and either comply or get angrier. The 2nd method, if deployed correctly, causes subjects to 'tense' up and have really no other reaction. Some get the wind knocked out them, others yell, etc etc.

Although I am not clear on all services use of force models, deployment using each method is on different levels. The first method is generally used to gain compliance from people actively resisting arrest, the 2nd method is used on subjects that are generally assaultive. Again, vancouver could be different.

Generally, the taser cycles for 5 seconds with one trigger pull. This can be made longer or shorter by holding down the trigger. I would assume most forces have strict restrictions for the maximum allow time a subject can be tased in addition to the number of cycles. Keep in mind that after the subject is tased, actual physical control must be taken by officers as the subject has no lingering effects such as with deployment of OC spray. There has been incidences where individuals have pulled the leads from the probes AFTER be tased and the police are back to square one.

There have been many instances of subjects dying from taser deployment. But in the vast majority, there were several factors (drug abuse, etc) that were the major contributors to the subjects death.

The bottom line, tasers are an authorized non-lethal use of force option for police. As are pepper spray, physical control, handcuffs and batons. All can cause death if their are preexisting conditions that police simply aren't aware of.


And yes, an investigation must be completed to determine the cause of death (mandatory in police custody deaths) and the appropriate level of force.

From my stand point, and what irks me, is the general lack of understanding of police procedure, training and law that causes threads like this is spiral into police brutality threads. I make attempts to educate and it is either ignored or somehow used to further the agenda- the post about section 26 is a good example (right now icarus is typing- 'who said I had an agenda?' -sigh, which again, isn't the point).

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

From my stand point, and what irks me, is the general lack of understanding of police procedure, training and law that causes threads like this is spiral into police brutality threads.

what irks me is that some of the pro-cop types don't even acknowledge the possibility that police procedure can be questioned.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Wow. Now I'm branded anti-cop and a cop-hater. Man, that's just so far off base its not even funny. Let's just say that I think good cops get a poor rap because of the bad ones, or the ones who are poorly trained. The inquest will decide which scenario it was. I just hate seeing any person, regardless of situation, get dealt with in a way where more communication could have averted the problem, and I think this may come out in the wash that there was a barrier to communication that caused the whole problem in the first place.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Wow. Now I'm branded anti-cop and a cop-hater. Man, that's just so far off base its not even funny. Let's just say that I think good cops get a poor rap because of the bad ones, or the ones who are poorly trained. The inquest will decide which scenario it was. I just hate seeing any person, regardless of situation, get dealt with in a way where more communication could have averted the problem, and I think this may come out in the wash that there was a barrier to communication that caused the whole problem in the first place.

after seeing the news reports on this issue, i think communication which was their first approach, went out the window when the guy started throwing computer equipment and other stuff around...

Also to the anti-cop movement in this thread, i admire your buttercup and candy cane approach you feel police should take, but i can conclude that non of you have been a cop, been put in to situations that may be life threatening to you and others and tried to deal with it...

Personal responsibility has been thrown out the window in todays liberalization of society...you dont want to get tasered...dont cause a freaking scene in a freaking airport...

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

after seeing the news reports on this issue, i think communication which was their first approach, went out the window when the guy started throwing computer equipment and other stuff around...

Also to the anti-cop movement in this thread, i admire your buttercup and candy cane approach you feel police should take, but i can conclude that non of you have been a cop, been put in to situations that may be life threatening to you and others and tried to deal with it...

Personal responsibility has been thrown out the window in todays liberalization of society...you dont want to get tasered...dont cause a freaking scene in a freaking airport...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim..._called-1.html

If you don't want to be shot - don't go to parties, amirite?
But I shouldn't judge, I'm not as highly trained as this guy () and have not been put in life or death situations such as being called a pig.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Wow. Now I'm branded anti-cop and a cop-hater. Man, that's just so far off base its not even funny. Let's just say that I think good cops get a poor rap because of the bad ones, or the ones who are poorly trained. The inquest will decide which scenario it was. I just hate seeing any person, regardless of situation, get dealt with in a way where more communication could have averted the problem, and I think this may come out in the wash that there was a barrier to communication that caused the whole problem in the first place.

I agree with you up to a point, I don't think your anti-cop or a cop hater, and I would think that the fatality inquiry is going to be fairly interesting. there might be a barrier of communication between the police and the deseased, however, this guy was acting like a lunatic, and far over the edge so it keeps coming back to him being unwilling or unable to stand down.

I think the inquiry is going to focus more heavily on the technology thats involved in his death. Was the taser deployed properly and used properly.

Show me any non lethal weapon in the world and I'll show you deaths caused by it being used normally. Pepper spray has caused heart attacks. The bean bag guns have caused stokes. rubber bullets are considered to be non lethal, but hit someone over the heart or in the head and death is instant. They're talking about using lasers to temporarily blind people, and its a good idea until the blind person falls off of a building. But at least they're a chance of survival. Once that gun comes out of the holster, chances are good that death occurs.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Personal responsibility has been thrown out the window in todays liberalization of society...you dont want to get tasered...dont cause a freaking scene in a freaking airport...

What does that mean?

But yeah, the man was a security threat and was dealt with in a reasonable away. Its not like they just ran up and shot him with a tazer and then proceeded to wack him repeatedly with nightsticks.

Perhaps before people start second guessing the actions of the security guards, they should experience trying to restrain a fully grown man going crazy while trying to keep other people from getting injured.

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim..._called-1.html

If you don't want to be shot - don't go to parties, amirite?
But I shouldn't judge, I'm not as highly trained as this guy () and have not been put in life or death situations such as being called a pig.

Perfect example. You have changed my mind. You are so wise.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Perfect example. You have changed my mind. You are so wise.

good. its about time some people started to realize that its ok to question police and/or the policies they use.

too many people think its not appropriate to question what police do if you aren't a cop. yet most of them would probably think its fine to question the conduct of a politician or heck, even go as far as voting, but they don't have a poli sci degree. people will ponder about lawsuits and what lawyers are doing and laws in general without a law degree and that's a-ok.

and the list goes on and on and on.... ever come from a doctor and questioned a diagnosis enough to go get a second opinion? why are you questioning that diagnosis? you're not a doctor!

edit2: while we're at it, why limit it to your profession... why not go right down to your hobbies... ever had an opinion on a book you read? lets see your english degree, sir. i just want to make sure you're qualified to make these judgments.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim..._called-1.html

If you don't want to be shot - don't go to parties, amirite?
But I shouldn't judge, I'm not as highly trained as this guy () and have not been put in life or death situations such as being called a pig.

Regardless of whether that i guy was a cop, he prob would of done the samething...being a cop really has nothing to do with it....and as for as your party comment, do you fail to see the difference between making a scene in a highly sensitive place like the airport and a freak act of voilence at a party...that being said the guy in that article was provoked and these days you have no idea how someone is going to react to being embarrased or hurt or whatever...so you got nothing good to say dont say it...I am not anyway going to defend what this guy did, and regardless of what happened those people didnt deserve the end result....but at the sametime take some responsibilty there are alot of messed up people out there and society doesnt have an answer for them, so protect yourself...teach your kids, your friends ect...practice your own self defence, because it isnt worth finding out how some lunatic may react to something your did

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Any devise used to bring control on someone has a chance of injuring or killing that person. If someone has a certain condition and they are handcuffed wrong and not positioned right they can die. It is not the handcuffs fault.

According to you, the reason he died is whatever he did to end up in the handcuffs in the first place.

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

good. its about time some people started to realize that its ok to question police and/or the policies they use.

too many people think its not appropriate to question what police do if you aren't a cop. yet most of them would probably think its fine to question the conduct of a politician or heck, even go as far as voting, but they don't have a poli sci degree. people will ponder about lawsuits and what lawyers are doing and laws in general without a law degree and that's a-ok.

and the list goes on and on and on.... ever come from a doctor and questioned a diagnosis enough to go get a second opinion? why are you questioning that diagnosis? you're not a doctor!

edit2: while we're at it, why limit it to your profession... why not go right down to your hobbies... ever had an opinion on a book you read? lets see your english degree, sir. i just want to make sure you're qualified to make these judgments.

Damn internet and it's ability to convey sarcasm... so, I was being sarcastic.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Damn internet and it's ability to convey sarcasm... so, I was being sarcastic.

i know - and the first line of my post was with my tongue firmly in my cheek.

the rest is pretty valid though to all those saying 'people who don't have police training shouldn't judge cops'

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

i know - and the first line of my post was with my tongue firmly in my cheek.

the rest is pretty valid though to all those saying 'people who don't have police training shouldn't judge cops'

To an extent, but without any attempt to educate yourself on the subject, one just ends up looking like an idiot in the eyes of people that have a background and/or knowledge on the subject. It certainly makes it clear you don't know what you are talking about regardless of whether is a politician, computer tech or police officer.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

According to you, the reason he died is whatever he did to end up in the handcuffs in the first place.

Ya...that is what I said. What he did led...led ot his death...didn't cause it...it led to his death.