Toronto Raptors 2011/2012 Season

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

Before this season started I really wanted Barnes or MKG. MKG's stock has gone way up and will probably be gone by the third pick, so we didn't really have much of a shot at him. Barnes is still a possibility for us since his stock has gone way down, but I think I actually prefer Beal now anyway. He seems to have an all-around game that Barnes doesn't have.

Brad Beal or Kendall Marshall would be perfectly OK with me.

I don't think there's any way that Beal will be around by the #8 pick, but I'd love it if he fell, or if the Raptors could move up to get him. I suspect it'll be a choice of Marshall, Lillard, PJ3, or Lamb. Or Quincy Miller, if they really want to reach.

[flames_1987]

I'm incredibly pleased with this season and this team going forward. I really think the Raptors are playoff team in 2013

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by octothorp

I don't think there's any way that Beal will be around by the #8 pick, but I'd love it if he fell, or if the Raptors could move up to get him. I suspect it'll be a choice of Marshall, Lillard, PJ3, or Lamb. Or Quincy Miller, if they really want to reach.

I really do not want PJ3. I think that Davis, Robinson, MKG and Drummond will likely make up the top 4 in some order. Assuming the Raptors pick 8th for now, that would leave one of Barnes, Beal, Lamb or Marshall for us. Any one of those guys is a huge upgrade for us at their respective positions.

[moon]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

I'm incredibly pleased with this season and this team going forward. I really think the Raptors are playoff team in 2013

I know you like to be super positive with the Toronto teams but outside of the East being very weak at the bottom of the conference I don't see the rationality behind this.

Not a single Raptor player looked to improve this season and the guys they have outside of Bargnani would be hard pressed to crack the top 9 on most good teams.

Valciniius has been built up as some sort of great prospect but he still has a ton to prove and likely struggles whether good or not.

Casey seems to be the one positive this team has and if they had been able to get a top 3 pick perhaps with him coaching that would be enough but with the incompetent management, borderline awful talent and little to no improvement I don't see the play-offs for at least 2-3 years.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by moon

I know you like to be super positive with the Toronto teams but outside of the East being very weak at the bottom of the conference I don't see the rationality behind this.

Not a single Raptor player looked to improve this season and the guys they have outside of Bargnani would be hard pressed to crack the top 9 on most good teams.

Valciniius has been built up as some sort of great prospect but he still has a ton to prove and likely struggles whether good or not.

Casey seems to be the one positive this team has and if they had been able to get a top 3 pick perhaps with him coaching that would be enough but with the incompetent management, borderline awful talent and little to no improvement I don't see the play-offs for at least 2-3 years.

Great prospect break down Moon. Likely struggles whether good or not. Genius....Most scouts actually have him making quite an impact on his first season since he was playing in a league with players much older then him this season. I love how you try and force your arguments by always stating that it's Toronto fans who are building up these players, when it's been the media outside of Toronto saying all these things.

With a healthy Bargnani this year, I think they could have competed for a playoff spot easily. And save me the Bargnani isn't even good enough to crack the top 9 on other teams. You know so little about basektball, your arguments are never statistically based or detailed, it's all your overblown opinions.


They went from the 30th ranked defensive team to the 4th in the league I believe. Players took some big steps forward on the defensive side of the ball. Calderon improved and had a very strong season when healthy. Another high draft pick this season, cap space (Yes you don't like Collangelo I get it) and the amnesty clause. With a little bit more talent, the Raptors could easily compete for a playoff spot with Casey as a coach next season in the weak eastern conference.

And here is my super positivity for the Toronto teams: The Blue Jays are a good baseball team with the chance for a great future (A similar belief shared by many in the baseball world) This was a productive season for the Raptors, I like where this team is headed, with a solid offseason they could contend for a playoff spot. A thought again, shared by many in the basketball world. Give your head a shake

[moon]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

Great prospect break down Moon. Likely struggles whether good or not. Genius....Most scouts actually have him making quite an impact on his first season since he was playing in a league with players much older then him this season. I love how you try and force your arguments by always stating that it's Toronto fans who are building up these players, when it's been the media outside of Toronto saying all these things.

Didn't realize that a thorough prospect breakdown was needed. A European big man who is ~20 years old is likely to struggle at times during the season. Don't think that is a huge reach or some sort of controversial opinion. I don't think that he will be enough to be the focal point of the Raptors team next year and that it is risky to rely on him for improvement on the team next season.

Also where did I say anything about Raptor fans? If anyone if forcing their arguments it is you making that part up out of nowhere.

With a healthy Bargnani this year, I think they could have competed for a playoff spot easily. And save me the Bargnani isn't even good enough to crack the top 9 on other teams. You know so little about basektball, your arguments are never statistically based or detailed, it's all your overblown opinions.

What?

I specifically said outside of Bargnani was the one guy who was good enough to crack the top 9.

Again you making stuff up and then whining about my arguments?

They went from the 30th ranked defensive team to the 4th in the league I believe. Players took some big steps forward on the defensive side of the ball. Calderon improved and had a very strong season when healthy. Another high draft pick this season, cap space (Yes you don't like Collangelo I get it) and the amnesty clause. With a little bit more talent, the Raptors could easily compete for a playoff spot with Casey as a coach next season in the weak eastern conference.

Seems like a lot of agreeing with me here in the sense that Casey and the weak East seem to be the best chances they have of competing.

I don't like Coangelo for good reasons, he has shown nothing in his time as GM to make anyone a believer. He has lived off of getting Nash and then a ton of horrible moves after that and somehow seems to skate by just because Nash saved his ass in Phoenix for so long.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by moon

Didn't realize that a thorough prospect breakdown was needed. A European big man who is ~20 years old is likely to struggle at times during the season. Don't think that is a huge reach or some sort of controversial opinion. I don't think that he will be enough to be the focal point of the Raptors team next year and that it is risky to rely on him for improvement on the team next season.

Also where did I say anything about Raptor fans? If anyone if forcing their arguments it is you making that part up out of nowhere.

The Raptors aren't expecting him to be the vocal point of the team or that the team will go through him. He has some incredible talent, he will improve this team right away. He's played against much stronger competition then most rookies, and likely would've gone #2 in his draft if it was not for him waiting a year. He's going to make this team better, no matter what his capacity is to begin with. He should be able to improve as the season goes on as well

What?

I specifically said outside of Bargnani was the one guy who was good enough to crack the top 9.

Again you making stuff up and then whining about my arguments?

I miss-read what you were saying. That's my bad. And Calderon would be able to easily for a lot of teams, even if it meant in a back up PG position. Looking into Advanced statistics, he's way better then some people understand.

Seems like a lot of agreeing with me here in the sense that Casey and the weak East seem to be the best chances they have of competing.

It sure is, and I think that what Casey was able to get out of this team with the chance of Derozan and Davis both continuing to improve and another draft, and the cap space the Raptors have, they could be a playoff team without question. No doubt it has a lot to do with the crappy Eastern Conference, don't see them being 2-3 years away at all.

I don't like Coangelo for good reasons, he has shown nothing in his time as GM to make anyone a believer. He has lived off of getting Nash and then a ton of horrible moves after that and somehow seems to skate by just because Nash saved his ass in Phoenix for so long

If this team doesn't make the playoffs, it's quite clear he will be let go after next season. I liked his approach last offseason, I'll see what he does this offseason. I don't think to highly of him, but I really like what has happened over last offseason and this season, so I'll reserve my judgment for after the next season

[The Big Chill]

It has to be kept in mind too that the Raptors will have a good chunk of money to spend in free agency too. I think the addition of JV, the new draft pick, a guy or two in FA, and another year under Casey could get this team playing .500 ball.

[flames_1987]

The Raptors had a better record then last season, important injuries all season, and lost so many close games this year. A healthy Bargs, Calderon and the added talent of this offseason and this team is going to be fun to watch next season. Casey talked about players spending more time in the offseason in Toronto and gave a great exit interview.

[St. Pats]

This season had absolutely nothing to do with Bargnani and Calderon. Or in losing close games. The entire emphasis was to tank and pick up more talent. BC signed dufus after dufus after dufus to fill out the roster. They took advantage of every injury and sat the guys as along as possible. BC further tried to up the tank by signing a bunch of D-league players.

Goal--be right there near the top for draft picks.

Result-8th and hoping for a player to fall to them.

Bargnani is now sitting on an injury that is starting to look chronic and was exacerbated by stupid use of his minutes. In general the time given to the youngsters was only due to injuries. Development was sketchy at best.

The year was a total disaster. The stated goal was not attained. Some positives around the culture of the team but adding talent far, far outweights that.

I had high hopes for this season and not a single one of them was based on wins or the play of Bargnani or Calderon. The number one was getting a top at worst 5 pick and hopefully top 3. With the cast they added to the lack of talented squad they had that should have been easy. But other teams were better at the tank than they were. The other was some significant improvement from DD, Davis, Bayless and JJ. DD was inconsistent, Davis disspointing, Bayless never really got going and JJ one dimensional.

A year where as far as the up and comers though I would get rid of one(Bayless), trade another(Davis) and hire a coach to work with the other two HARD all summer to improve their games(DD and JJ) is pretty sad.

I find it just stunningly homerish that anyone could call this season positive. It was a season that has put BC in a position where he better pull some rabbits out of some hats or he is adios. That was one scary bad season.

[howard_the_duck]

Put me in the disaster camp. There are no future championships with Derozan/Bargnani as the stars of the Raptors.

Good complementary pieces? Yes. But frankly, they need to draft a cornerstone for the franchise, and the team's drafting history leaves me with no confidence they'll find that player with the 9th overall pick.

The draft pick was what this year was all about and the failure to have a surefire pick is pretty devastating.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Put me in the disaster camp. There are no future championships with Derozan/Bargnani as the stars of the Raptors.

Good complementary pieces? Yes. But frankly, they need to draft a cornerstone for the franchise, and the team's drafting history leaves me with no confidence they'll find that player with the 9th overall pick.

The draft pick was what this year was all about and the failure to have a surefire pick is pretty devastating.

There really doesn't appear to be any "franchise" players in this years draft besides Anthony Davis.

[flames_1987]

Not sure what rabbits BC has to pull out of his hat to avoid getting fired. This team could easily have competed for a playoff spot had Bargs not gone down early on in the season. You add just a few more quality pieces to this team which they have the Cap Space to do , another top 10 draft pick and Valanciunas and this team plays defense the way they did this season and this team is a playoff team. Would have loved to have seen a higher draft pick, but I don't think it's the be all and end all to this franchise.

[moon]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

I find it just stunningly homerish that anyone could call this season positive. It was a season that has put BC in a position where he better pull some rabbits out of some hats or he is adios. That was one scary bad season.

I think Coangelo has shown time after time that he can be an awful GM and he isn't getting fired but instead getting new deals.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by moon

I think Coangelo has shown time after time that he can be an awful GM and he isn't getting fired but instead getting new deals.

GMs, like players need to be evaluated on strengths and weaknesses. I'd say Colangelo's strengths are an ability to make creative trades to get the assets he wants, acquire underrated assets, and get quality out of mid-first (and occasionally second-round) draft picks, while avoiding busts. His big weaknesses are a tendency to overspend for high-end assets he wants, and over-value the offensive side of the game.
In the last year, he's shown that he's aware of his weaknesses and is attempting to correct them: hiring a defensive-minded coach and other defensively-minded acquisitions, not immediately using cap space just because he has it, hiring a second-opinion in Stefanski. I think it would be stupid to keep Colangelo if he weren't willing to work on his own weaknesses, but right now it looks like he's reevaluating some of his core philosophies. I think that if he has a good offseason and next season shows that the new direction for the team is working, then he'll definitely deserve a new contract at the end of next year.

[The Big Chill]

This is also the first time Colangelo has attempted a full rebuild. We've seen him try to re-tool, but he was always in win-now mode. For that alone, I'm willing to give him a chance to see out this rebuild for another year. If we aren't any better off after next season, then I'd be more then happy to give someone else a shot.

[moon]

Originally Posted by octothorp

GMs, like players need to be evaluated on strengths and weaknesses. I'd say Colangelo's strengths are an ability to make creative trades to get the assets he wants, acquire underrated assets, and get quality out of mid-first (and occasionally second-round) draft picks, while avoiding busts. His big weaknesses are a tendency to overspend for high-end assets he wants, and over-value the offensive side of the game.
In the last year, he's shown that he's aware of his weaknesses and is attempting to correct them: hiring a defensive-minded coach and other defensively-minded acquisitions, not immediately using cap space just because he has it, hiring a second-opinion in Stefanski. I think it would be stupid to keep Colangelo if he weren't willing to work on his own weaknesses, but right now it looks like he's reevaluating some of his core philosophies. I think that if he has a good offseason and next season shows that the new direction for the team is working, then he'll definitely deserve a new contract at the end of next year.

I don't really see any quality that he is getting out of mid-first or second round picks and his weakness seems to be that he is horrible at judging talent.

He wasted Nash in Phoenix making dumb deals, whining about a lack of money and then spending more money on crap talent than it would have cost to keep the good players.

Since coming to Toronto he has brought the team to awful in a fairly quick period and has managed to maintain them at that bad level for a few years now. He has brought in about 0 impact players and one above average player (Bargnani). He seems good at bringing in mediocre to bad talent I will give him that.

I guess I didn't see what he did to earn an extension the first time and not sure why after having this team miss the play-offs 4 years in a row now with little hope for the future outside of a kid playing in Europe what he has done to earn another contract extension in the future.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by octothorp

GMs, like players need to be evaluated on strengths and weaknesses. I'd say Colangelo's strengths are an ability to make creative trades to get the assets he wants, acquire underrated assets, and get quality out of mid-first (and occasionally second-round) draft picks, while avoiding busts. His big weaknesses are a tendency to overspend for high-end assets he wants, and over-value the offensive side of the game.
In the last year, he's shown that he's aware of his weaknesses and is attempting to correct them: hiring a defensive-minded coach and other defensively-minded acquisitions, not immediately using cap space just because he has it, hiring a second-opinion in Stefanski. I think it would be stupid to keep Colangelo if he weren't willing to work on his own weaknesses, but right now it looks like he's reevaluating some of his core philosophies. I think that if he has a good offseason and next season shows that the new direction for the team is working, then he'll definitely deserve a new contract at the end of next year.

It really don't much matter what he has done. Guaranteed he is out the door unless they make significant strides next year. He made an attempt at the tank but in the end got bettered by other GM's in that dept. Now he is yakking that he has a trade in place for before even June 1st, that we will be surprised what youngish players are available. We will see as he has no excuses. He has capspace and can create more easily. He has open spots all over the roster to give starting playing time. He has a pick he can move and young players like Davis, Bayless etc. etc. he can throw in deals.

He was in this spot before and completely blew it. Years of mediocrity leading to back to square one.

[The Big Chill]

Not unexpected, but sounds like we are in for a busy off-season.

http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog...ve-off-season/

[flames_1987]

Going to be a lot of excitement around the Raptors next season to start the season, first time in a long time.