The fall of Monahan, and the fall of the Flames

[timbit]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Lol. You couldn’t be more wrong. Hockey is the perfect sport.

I can watch football because I am a dude and can watch and appreciate any sport (and pick a preferred team in any game), also respect a lot of what it is, but in reality, could not give 2 ####s about football

Swing and a miss, friend

You do know that hockey teams have strategies, I hope. Lol

I suspect you have over indulged.

Sleep well.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

When I look at where this rebuild has failed it really comes down to players not hitting their ceilings. It wasn’t crazy to think we had a potential franchise center in Monahan based on his first few years in the league. In 2019 he finished slightly above ppg with 82pts in 80 games but there was a point mid season where he was projecting to score over 40 goals and 100pts before he seemingly fell off a cliff he hasn’t climbed out of.

There was a time I believed Gaudreau was going to be a superstar that would be battling McDavid for scoring titles. He was by far one of the best and most exciting players on team North America and was 6th in league scoring as a sophomore. Like Monahan in 2019 he was looking to be in that discussion again. A Hart Trophy candidate pacing to over 120pts at times but ended at 99 still a very good year finishing 7th in scoring.

Bennett flopping has been beaten to death but a critical blow to this rebuild. I would also say that Hanifin is a guy who has underwhelmed in relation to the hype he had coming into the league. While he is improved he had hype where he should be in the same conversation as a Seth Jones but he is more of a 3/4 D than 1/2. Having said that he played 3 years with the Canes prior to the Flames and after 3 years he wasn’t trending in that direction.

We will see where Matthew Tkachuk ends up this year. He has struggled offensively over the last 7-8 games but he looks to be coming on. 34 goals 76pts at 21, leading scorer at 22 still seems to be on track to be captain but does he have the ability to score 40 and be a ppg or better? He scored 34 and had 76pts as a 21 year old.

Lindholm was acquired after 5 seasons where he seemed to be an established steady 15 goal 45pt guy. There was upside there but he took off. He has completely passed Monahan in terms of value and has justified being picked one spot ahead. He can play center or wing and has turned into 25+ goal scorer hovering around a ppg playing in all situations. Absolute core piece.

It really felt like this team had enough high picks with high ceilings to contend and in 18/19 it really felt like it was all coming together. Once they were embarrassed in the first round the team has regressed in a big way. Monahan is not viewed as a legit number 1 center on a good team, Johnny is not a top 10 scorer. Tkachuk hasn’t really taken a step forward. Now it look like this group is not going to be good enough to contend.

Right now I DO believe JG is a first line winger, as is Tkachuk. Both of those guys have top 10 scorer potential if playing with a top 10 center man. Neither have that opportunity right now.

Again, I couldn’t have been a bigger Monahan believer and supporter through his first 5 years but he is the one who has fallen off the cliff... not Johnny.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by timbit

You must be a football fan and not near the hockey tactician that you believe you are.

Read and react , based on concepts and principles, decides player decisions under good coaching.

Again, not a static game.

What happens when the players are coached to read and react the wrong way? What happens when the players are instructed to play within the constraints of certain systems that does not leverage their skills? You throw around a lot of really generic coaching platitudes but the reality is GOOD coaches coach to the talent of the team and don't force the team to systems they don't have the ability or makeup to play. This is the problem with the Flames for years. They bring in guys that have no idea how to coach and manage talent at levels beyond them. Recognize the talent you have and then use it in appropriate ways. Don't strap a thoroughbred to wagon and think you're doing great things. Don't take your Clydesdales to the Kentucky Derby and think you have a chance at winning the roses. Recognize the strengths and talent of your assets and use them accordingly.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

Right now I DO believe JG is a first line winger, as is Tkachuk. Both of those guys have top 10 scorer potential if playing with a top 10 center man. Neither have that opportunity right now.

Again, I couldn’t have been a bigger Monahan believer and supporter through his first 5 years but he is the one who has fallen off the cliff... not Johnny.

I agree Johnny is a first line winger but there was a time I thought he was going to be in the mix to be a top 5 superstar in the league. Based on his first couple of years I thought he would battle McDavid for scoring titles

Johnny is an all-star first line player but there was a time where I thought he was going to be one of the truly elite players of this generation basically another Patrick Kane. He didn’t reach that ceiling.

[TheKiprusoffResurrection]

IMO, this season Monahan is taking an extra half second to shoot the puck when he recieves a great dish from Johhny in the slot and it's allowed goalies to square him up and propel out to cut down his angles.

Not sure if its due to injury or possibly just doubting himself a bit? I really can't say why its happening, but the old Sean Monahan had the puck in the back of the net milliseconds after hitting his stick. He has a great release but if you give the goalie that extra fraction of a second, chance to convert (obviously) goes way down.

A good coach should be able to correct this in his star player.....if only we had a good coach.

[motorcrosser]

Originally Posted by TheKiprusoffResurrection

IMO, this season Monahan is taking an extra half second to shoot the puck when he recieves a great dish from Johhny in the slot and it's allowed goalies to square him up and propel out to cut down his angles.



Not sure if its due to injury or possibly just doubting himself a bit? I really can't say why its happening, but the old Sean Monahan had the puck in the back of the net milliseconds after hitting his stick. He has a great release but if you give the goalie that extra fraction of a second, chance to convert (obviously) goes way down.



A good coach should be able to correct this in his star player.....if only we had a good coach.

Why would a professional, millionaire player need a coach to tell him to shoot the puck a bit quicker? Is there no accountability to the player to improve things himself?

[TheKiprusoffResurrection]

Originally Posted by motorcrosser

Why would a professional, millionaire player need a coach to tell him to shoot the puck a bit quicker? Is there no accountability to the player to improve things himself?

Thats what coaches do, pick up on small details and bring them back to the player to work on. Sean might have no clue he is hesitatating slightly when getting those passes and with some instruction and drilling he could possibly change the habit.

Players fall into bad habits all the time. If a coach isn't able to identify and attempt to correct said habits then he serves very little use.

[calumniate]

I have no issues with Monahan. For all we know he needs another 4 surgeries by now, lol. He has one of the best shots from the slot in the game.

[GioforPM]

There’s a ton of bad takes here.

Monahan was never pegged to be an elite centre. He was the best player at his spot in the draft and I dare say he still is. He was a 30 goal scorer in junior. He was expected to be a solid centre, and the talk at the time was he would be a two-way guy. He turned out to be a scoring centre, but no one ever said elite, like the expectations for Mackinnon.

I see no hesitation in his shot. He still has 3-4 bang bang shots from the slot every game. They’ve hit the goalie. Like the vast majority of shots do. He’s going though a slump just like he has in several years already (and he invariably comes out of them). January 2019 - two goals. October 2018 - he got 5 goals right away and then went through a 10 game stretch with only 1.

Monahan has shot every year at a 13% rate except in his ppg season where he was 16%. He’s at 5% this year. That’s unsustainable, and he will bounce back.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by motorcrosser

Why would a professional, millionaire player need a coach to tell him to shoot the puck a bit quicker? Is there no accountability to the player to improve things himself?

Because every single problem has to be blamed on Ward.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by motorcrosser

Why would a professional, millionaire player need a coach to tell him to shoot the puck a bit quicker? Is there no accountability to the player to improve things himself?

Part of coaching is noticing trends and helping players make adjustments. Another part is building confidence and helping players find ways to excel. Whether that be through visualization or individual video sessions or individual training sessions, that is the job of the coach. Sometimes players games get a little bit off and they need a tweak. Monahan may not be aware he is double clutching, just like a golfer may not be aware they have developed an inside takeaway or flat finish to their swings.

Changes happen gradually and become unnoticeable to the athlete, which is why video review and skills check-ins become so valuable to coaches and players alike. I don't know how many times a film session helped my fielding and batting, and then later in another career my golf game. Coaches recognized these minor things and helped untrack a bad habit. Good coaches make players better all the time by helping them maintain their game and skillset. Bad coaches just get in your ear and blame and tell you to work harder. I've had both and I know who made me a better player at all levels. Many times the athlete doesn't know what is off and needs a second set of eyes. That is where the coach is invaluable to the player and the team. I don't believe that type of coach exists on our staff or has the influence they should.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There’s a ton of bad takes here.

Monahan was never pegged to be an elite centre. He was the best player at his spot in the draft and I dare say he still is. He was a 30 goal scorer in junior. He was expected to be a solid centre, and the talk at the time was he would be a two-way guy. He turned out to be a scoring centre, but no one ever said elite, like the expectations for Mackinnon..

When Monahan scored 31 as a 20 year old and Darryl Sutter called him one of the best young centers in the game the perception of him was elevated from what people said when he was drafted. Gio went down at the deadline and Monahan, Gaudreau and Hudler put the team on their back to get into the playoffs.

What Monahan did as a sophomore raised his value to where many flames fans thought we had finally found our long term top line center. Before MacKinnon broke out many Flames fans thought Monahan was the better player as he lead his draft class in scoring for a few years outpacing MacKinnon, Barkov etc.

Monahan never became a 2way player and dare I say Horvat passed him last year Seems like you are focusing on a pre-draft take and ignoring the most of his NHL career until he fell off after the bye week in 2019. Don’t reply with some garbage about the term “elite center” Monahan was viewed as a number 1 center by many NHL fans but he has not played at that level for 2 calendar years.

[CroFlames]

I can accept that people don't like him as the #1C etc, but some of the takes are horrible. Zero trade value, can be knocked over by a 12 y.o., can't do anything but tap ins. My word people.

By definition, there are only a handful of elite players in the NHL. If every team had an elite #1C, then none of them are elite.

The Flames have an elite goaltender, a very solid young d corps, and leave something to be desired at F.

It seems that some people think that if he's not elite, he is basically replacement level.

[Heavy Jack]

It’s why it’s hard to talk trade on the forums because our players are widely undervalued by our fans while seemingly players we’d hope to get are overvalued.

The Gaudreau for Konecny speculation is a great example; many posters have ya adding to that which to me is crazy for a number of reasons. Sure Konecny is a tad younger, is a RW and is signed for longer but Philly is the team that WANTS Gaudreau in this speculative transaction and it’s Gaudreau who is clearly the more elite talent versus Konecny but still it’s rarely seen that way by our fans here and lots of times the Flames are adding a Kylington or a high pick to ‘get the deal done’ in this speculations.

Monahan is a 2nd line Center on pretty much every single team in the league and is the top line Center for a good amount as well including ours. He is supremely undervalued and it’s honestly quite sad to see. I’d be disappointed if he netted anything less than a 1st + top prospect + solid roster player where as to CroFlames point it’s seems as though Monahan would be an after thought on anything involving him in a trade and not a centrepiece acquisition which is a shocking take.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by motorcrosser

Why would a professional, millionaire player need a coach to tell him to shoot the puck a bit quicker? Is there no accountability to the player to improve things himself?

I feel like the arguments brought up by those who deflect the blame from the coach, and on to the players completely dismiss the purpose of the coaching staff. There's a reason that head coaches get paid big bucks, and obviously have such a high turnover if a team isn't being successful. They do have an influential impact on the performance capability of a roster.

Within this own franchise, the two most recent successful playoff runs came from coaches that got the team to perform well above the sum of it's parts. If coaching has a little of impact as those say it does, then those rosters themselves were the main reason they did as good as they did rather than the coach being the biggest impact. There's a reason why certain head coaches are critically acclaimed and keep getting hired by multiple teams, while others never head coach again. They are an important piece of a teams potential.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

When Monahan scored 31 as a 20 year old and Darryl Sutter called him one of the best young centers in the game the perception of him was elevated from what people said when he was drafted. Gio went down at the deadline and Monahan, Gaudreau and Hudler put the team on their back to get into the playoffs.

What Monahan did as a sophomore raised his value to where many flames fans thought we had finally found our long term top line center. Before MacKinnon broke out many Flames fans thought Monahan was the better player as he lead his draft class in scoring for a few years outpacing MacKinnon, Barkov etc.

Monahan never became a 2way player and dare I say Horvat passed him last year Seems like you are focusing on a pre-draft take and ignoring the most of his NHL career until he fell off after the bye week in 2019. Don’t reply with some garbage about the term “elite center” Monahan was viewed as a number 1 center by many NHL fans but he has not played at that level for 2 calendar years.

What made Monahan so special was his poise and maturity to his game at such a young age. One of the reasons he was given a letter at a young age. All humans grow and progress at a different pace and I think it's quite possible Monahan was a n early bloomer and hit his peak at an earlier age. He has always taken a lot of punishment on the ice, and for that reason, his toughness gets underrated.

It's quite possible Monahan has already played his best hockey and as you say, some people's expectations may have been out of line.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Joborule

I feel like the arguments brought up by those who deflect the blame from the coach, and on to the players completely dismiss the purpose of the coaching staff. There's a reason that head coaches get paid big bucks, and obviously have such a high turnover if a team isn't being successful. They do have an influential impact on the performance capability of a roster.

Within this own franchise, the two most recent successful playoff runs came from coaches that got the team to perform well above the sum of it's parts. If coaching has a little of impact as those say it does, then those rosters themselves were the main reason they did as good as they did rather than the coach being the biggest impact. There's a reason why certain head coaches are critically acclaimed and keep getting hired by multiple teams, while others never head coach again. They are an important piece of a teams potential.

This may be true, but at least here there’s an arguably greater propensity to blame the coach for everything, and not put anything on the players. It’s understandable - the players are who fans follow and identify with.

As for acclaimed coaches - there are also a whole bunch who get hired everywhere, often at huge salaries, and accomplish a lot of nothing. Or have mixed success depending on the abilities of their teams. People thought Babcock was a genius.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I can accept that people don't like him as the #1C etc, but some of the takes are horrible. Zero trade value, can be knocked over by a 12 y.o., can't do anything but tap ins. My word people.

By definition, there are only a handful of elite players in the NHL. If every team had an elite #1C, then none of them are elite.

The Flames have an elite goaltender, a very solid young d corps, and leave something to be desired at F.

It seems that some people think that if he's not elite, he is basically replacement level.

I agree with you but we've also seen so many people here overate him over the years as well.
He's a very polarizing player and some don't give him enough credit where as others give him way too much; truth is in the middle.

For years, you'd get lambasted on CP for complaining about Monahan and even suggesting he's not the #1 centre this team needs.
Even this season people are making appreciation threads for him because he's back checking a little more, the bar is so low for some.

Maybe we need a Monahan is what he is thread for a bit of neutrality.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

When Monahan scored 31 as a 20 year old and Darryl Sutter called him one of the best young centers in the game the perception of him was elevated from what people said when he was drafted. Gio went down at the deadline and Monahan, Gaudreau and Hudler put the team on their back to get into the playoffs.

What Monahan did as a sophomore raised his value to where many flames fans thought we had finally found our long term top line center. Before MacKinnon broke out many Flames fans thought Monahan was the better player as he lead his draft class in scoring for a few years outpacing MacKinnon, Barkov etc.

Monahan never became a 2way player and dare I say Horvat passed him last year Seems like you are focusing on a pre-draft take and ignoring the most of his NHL career until he fell off after the bye week in 2019. Don’t reply with some garbage about the term “elite center” Monahan was viewed as a number 1 center by many NHL fans but he has not played at that level for 2 calendar years.

It was a long standing CP joke re: Feaster’s signing of ROR falling through and potentially not getting Monahan. I would have never in a million years thought back then that Monahan was unlikely to reach the ROR ceiling!

No one at that time would have been happy with Monahan ending up with Conroy or Langkow as comps!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

When Monahan scored 31 as a 20 year old and Darryl Sutter called him one of the best young centers in the game the perception of him was elevated from what people said when he was drafted. Gio went down at the deadline and Monahan, Gaudreau and Hudler put the team on their back to get into the playoffs.

What Monahan did as a sophomore raised his value to where many flames fans thought we had finally found our long term top line center. Before MacKinnon broke out many Flames fans thought Monahan was the better player as he lead his draft class in scoring for a few years outpacing MacKinnon, Barkov etc.

Monahan never became a 2way player and dare I say Horvat passed him last year Seems like you are focusing on a pre-draft take and ignoring the most of his NHL career until he fell off after the bye week in 2019. Don’t reply with some garbage about the term “elite center” Monahan was viewed as a number 1 center by many NHL fans but he has not played at that level for 2 calendar years.

I don’t think anyone serious thought Monahan was better than Mackinnon - just an earlier bloomer. And when Bennett was drafted shortly afterward it was certainly believed he’d be the top centre over Monahan.

Point being, Monahan to me was a good player, and I like him still. I’d have put him right as a first line centre, but a pretty average one. And I didn’t see him getting better unless he handled D better, because he’d end up getting outmatched by his opposite number.

I don’t think “many NHL fans” give Monahan a second thought and certainly when you mention good (not elite) centres, he’s not a name which would come up at any point in his career, including his one PPG season