Montador's family sues NHL. Claims fighting leads to depression & addiciton

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Wouldn't this whole issue be solved if the NHL took educating their players on the risks of the sport seriously, and had contracts in place when a player gets injured stating that they KNOW the long term risks of playing through that injury?

Maybe it's not about taking fighting or hitting out of the game. If the NHL took the health of it's players seriously it wouldn't be in this mess. The real problem in the NHL is the tough guy culture that suggests if you can skate and shoot the puck, you can play.

We all like that the NHL is right up there with Rugby for having the toughest guys. Do we really want them to be known for having the dumbest?

At best, it might help protect the NHL (not entirely though - people sue doctors for malpractice even after signing waivers for surgery).

But the educational aspect is key, as is making sure correct protocols are followed. Independent assessments would be helpful.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

...I work a very stressful job. This has a direct impact on my mental and physical health, and despite my company not educating me on that, I'm well aware of it. If someday I decide i've had enough and commit harm to myself or I have a heart attack is it's my firm's fault? Would it be reasonable for my family to sue my firm because they directly caused me mental and physical anguish? I don't think it is.

I don't think this analogy is a good one. You are attempting to draw comparisons between repairable mental and physical ailments and a permanent, incurable neurological condition. High stress is serious, but I don't believe is reasonably classified by anyone as life threatening, in large part because it is well understood and treatable.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

...These law suits are a very slippery slope, and are just as applicable to other professions as they are professional athletes. At some point a grown adult must take responsibilities for their own actions, or lack of action to mitigate their own risk. We aren't talking about children here.

Not all actions are equal though. The consequences for some are much, MUCH more serious than for others, and if there is not proper access to information about the dangers of these especially damaging activities and behaviours, then we cannot be made to be responsible for things we cannot know.

Besides, this is more than merely about culpability. At some level, certain actions and behaviours are simply too dangerous and life threatening to permit under any reasonable circumstances. I would set the danger of CTE in this context: We know that fighting in hockey is a primary contributor to CTE, and we have it within our power to prevent it. Under these conditions, there should be no good reason to continue to enable fighting in hockey.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't think this analogy is a good one. You are attempting to draw comparisons between repairable mental and physical ailments and a permanent, incurable neurological condition. High stress is serious, but I don't believe is reasonably classified by anyone as life threatening, in large part because it is well understood and treatable.

Reparable mental ailments? Some mental damage that is done is beyond repair. I've seen people in my field have complete nervous breakdowns. Completely unable to return to the work environment, and their conditions affects their every day life with their children and family. Not the same people at all. Clinically depressed because their career was their identity, and their conditions renders them unable to return to work.

So again, where does it stop? Both examples are professionals getting paid to do a job. Both do a job that they are aware can have consequences (be it physical or mental).

[pylon]

These lawsuits bug me. Nobody holds a gun to anyone's head to be a pro-athlete. And these guys are compensated like gods to play a game. There is two solutions.

1) All sports go non-contact. Period. And any contact that results in injury results in criminal charges.

2) Or these guys sign a waiver to play full contact sports absolving the league of any responsibility should they get head injuries.

Everyone enters into pro football, auto racing, hockey, baseball... whatever sport it is, knowing there is a risk a significant injury or death. But the rate this is going, lawyers are going to dismantle professional contact sports as we know them, within the next couple decades. There is just too much money to be gained by suing these leagues with pretty much bottomless pockets. And the dudes with the bottomless pockets don't need the aggravation of being sued to the moon, for what are ultimately hobby businesses for them. They'll eventually just shut the whole kit and kaboodle down if these lawsuits continue at this rate.

[Flash Walken]

Here's a scenario:

You have a job handling dangerous chemicals. You are paid a premium because you work with dangerous chemicals. You are very experienced working with dangerous chemicals.

During the course of your job, you come into contact with some of these dangerous chemicals, and your bosses see this happen. They ask you if you're ok and to the best of your knowledge you are. You go back to work and are again exposed to dangerous chemicals, except this time, it's much worse, because although you thought you were fine, it turns out that being exposed to these chemicals gets exponentially worse with each exposure. You are again seen by your employers to having been exposed to these chemicals, but this time, you aren't aware that you've been exposed. Your employer then continues to let you work in an environment that has serious implications on your health without letting you know.

You eventually die because of this exposure, at the age of 35 and in the autopsy it is revealed that you did indeed die as a result of this exposure.

If your family then sues your employer, is that 'going too far'?

The slippery slope for this lawsuit will be that if Montador's family wins, any other team that is also in violation of the league's mandated concussion protocol will also see vindication as their lawsuits are won.

That's a slope worth sliding down.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by pylon

These lawsuits bug me. Nobody holds a gun to anyone's head to be a pro-athlete. And these guys are compensated like gods to play a game. There is two solutions.

1) All sports go non-contact. Period. And any contact that results in injury results in criminal charges.

2) Or these guys sign a waiver to play full contact sports absolving the league of any responsibility should they get head injuries.

Everyone enters into pro football, auto racing, hockey, baseball... whatever sport it is, knowing there is a risk a significant injury or death. But the rate this is going, lawyers are going to dismantle professional contact sports as we know them, within the next couple decades. There is just too much money to be gained by suing these leagues with pretty much bottomless pockets. And the dudes with the bottomless pockets don't need the aggravation of being sued to the moon, for what are ultimately hobby businesses for them. They'll eventually just shut the whole kit and kaboodle down if these lawsuits continue at this rate.

All that compensation looks great on his grave. With no kids mid 30s. I understand your argument, and yet still think you are a selfish brat who dislikes your personal entertainment being affected even if it helps save people's lives.

[Textcritic]

It certainly was not my intention to belittle the seriousness of clinical depression, but it remains a preposterous analogy to draw upon in an effort to argue that people in any profession should be allowed to continue to subject themselves to sustaining permanent, serious brain damage.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

...So again, where does it stop? Both examples are professionals getting paid to do a job. Both do a job that they are aware can have consequences (be it physical or mental).

Again, I am not convinced that even now most professional athletes are adequately informed about the serious dangers and consequences posed by CTE. Further to the point, there are some behaviours and activities that are simply too dangerous and life threatening to even allow for consenting adults to choose for themselves. Opioids and narcotics are very strictly regulated for this reason.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It certainly was not my intention to belittle the seriousness of clinical depression, but it remains a preposterous analogy to draw upon in an effort to argue that people in any profession should be allowed to continue to subject themselves to sustaining permanent, serious brain damage.


Again, I am not convinced that even now most professional athletes are adequately informed about the serious dangers and consequences posed by CTE. Further to the point, there are some behaviours and activities that are simply too dangerous and life threatening to even allow for consenting adults to choose for themselves. Opioids and narcotics are very strictly regulated for this reason.

And do you think most new professionals are adequately informed about the consequences posed by depressions and stress? I can guarantee you they are not. In fact, its frequently joked about internally, as i'm sure injuries are in an NHL locker room as well. Just because you aren't adequately briefed about something in someone else's opinion, doesn't mean that it isn't common knowledge that a risk exists. Saying professional athletes who play a contact sport aren't aware that there may be physical dangers and consequences is rather ridiculous. They may be aware about CTE specifically, but they damn well know they are putting themselves at risk of long term injury.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

And do you think most new professionals are adequately informed about the consequences posed by depressions and stress? I can guarantee you they are not. In fact, its frequently joked about internally, as i'm sure injuries are in an NHL locker room as well. Just because you aren't adequately briefed about something in someone else's opinion, doesn't mean that it isn't common knowledge that a risk exists. Saying professional athletes who play a contact sport aren't aware that there may be physical dangers and consequences is rather ridiculous. They may be aware about CTE specifically, but they damn well know they are putting themselves at risk of long term injury.

Your response is basically an equivocation fallacy.

You are effectively claiming that the following two statements are the same:

"NHL players are adequately informed about the consequences posed by injuries, and it is common knowledge that their profession puts them at risk for sustaining long term injuries."

"NHL players are adequately informed about the consequences posed by CTE. It is common knowledge among hockey players that fighting will dramatically increase their risk to sustain progressive decline in memory and cognition, and is likely to result in depression, suicidal behavior, poor impulse control, aggressiveness, parkinsonism, and, eventually, dementia. All players know that with repeated, chronic head trauma, they are likely to develop lesions on the brain that impair and kill enormous numbers of brain cells which dramatically affect emotions and memory, eventually deforming the brain, making it brittle, and shrinking it by half its size."

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Your response is basically an equivocation fallacy.

You are effectively claiming that the following two statements are the same:

I'm claiming that anyone who plays a sports that involves routinely getting body checked by gargutian men travelling at incredibly fast speeds knows goddamn well that there's a risk of getting hurt, and the resulting injury could be very long term and debilitating in nature. They may not have been briefed on the science behind it or even know what CTE stands for, but they are fully aware of their own personal risk. It's part of the job. If they don't want to subject themselves to that risk, don't take the job, simple as that. No one forced them to play in the NHL. You maybe could argue that in Junior that they are children and are not developped cognitively enough to put 2 and 2 together when it comes to injury, or that their parents forced them into playing, but these are full grown men.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by saillias

All that compensation looks great on his grave. With no kids mid 30s. I understand your argument, and yet still think you are a selfish brat who dislikes your personal entertainment being affected even if it helps save people's lives.

NOBODY is forcing these guys to do what they do. If they are worried about the dangers, then don't play. The rsks are well known and documented. It's not like they are signing up to make unicorn t-shirts, and then being forced to bare knuckle box. Be like the rest of us then, and go punch a clock 9-5.

My job in itself is incredibly stressful. I have numerous weeks where I am being asked to work 6 days, with 2-3 16 hours days in a row. And usually no break but to take a leak. I worry about my health, as it does affect me, mentally and physically. My heart races from the stress. I drink too much coffee, my back gets injured from sitting the entire time, as getting up for a 5 minute walk isn't even an option. I will come in at 8am and not stop for even a minute until 10 or 11pm. However, I am compensated very well to do it, and if I don't someone else will gladly step in.

If I have a heart attack on the job or suffer a break down, I have nobody to blame but myself for accepting the ridiculous terms of employment.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I'm claiming that anyone who plays a sports that involves routinely getting body checked by gargutian men travelling at incredibly fast speeds knows goddamn well that there's a risk of getting hurt, and the resulting injury could be very long term and debilitating in nature. They may not have been briefed on the science behind it or even know what CTE stands for, but they are fully aware of their own personal risk. It's part of the job. If they don't want to subject themselves to that risk, don't take the job, simple as that. No one forced them to play in the NHL. You maybe could argue that in Junior that they are children and are not developped cognitively enough to put 2 and 2 together when it comes to injury, or that their parents forced them into playing, but these are full grown men.

Not knowing what CTE is and how detrimental it can be to one's health is not being "fully aware" of the risks. Full stop.

I am still of the opinion that the level of risk in this instance is not only very poorly communicated, it is unacceptable. To this point you have done nothing to demonstrate otherwise.

[calgarywinning]

I think the parents of the child that got hit in the head with the puck in the stands and died has a far better case against the NHL.

Also, my ongoing car maintenance and the possibility that I could die in my car is causing depression and addiction.

Here's hoping to the Tsunami victims success in their lawsuit in suing mother nature as well.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by pylon

NOBODY is forcing these guys to do what they do. If they are worried about the dangers, then don't play. The rsks are well known and documented...

Again, I would argue that the specific risks of CTE are not well known, but this is another matter. The problem with your post is that it does not address the real issue, which is this: The League is being charged with culpability for their failure to promote a safe working environment, and for their complicit endangerment of player safety and long term well being. The problem at issue in the cited case is that Montador was allegedly prematurely cleared to play. At this point his decision was not an informed one, because the expert opinion is disingenuous. So no, he was not at this point aware, nor likely worried about the dangers because he was told that there was nothing to worry about.

The larger issue is that the NHL promotes a working environment that dramatically increases one's risk of developing CTE, and it is completely unnecessary. If the NHL is in a position to take preventative measures to dramatically reduce the players risks of developing CTE, then they are obligated to do so. The levels of stress and ensuing effects of your own profession may not be as readily avoidable, but I see no good reason whatsoever for professional sports organizations and leagues to do what needs to be done to prevent their players from sustaining irreparable, serious brain damage.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The larger issue is that the NHL promotes a working environment that dramatically increases one's risk of developing CTE, and it is completely unnecessary. If the NHL is in a position to take preventative measures to dramatically reduce the players risks of developing CTE, then they are obligated to do so.

Not that Colin Campbell did a good job (he actually did a terrible job) but every time they did suspend a player for a head shot, the union (NHLPA) would appeal.

Where is the lawsuit against the NHLPA? (I know why there isn't one, but thats why I'm jaded)

[Coach]

I think people tend to forget that these guys are kids when they start. From all walks of life. It starts as a game and very quickly reforms itself into a budding career as a teenager until all of a sudden they are playing a dangerous game and making millions of dollars. Yes they choose to do it, but, like all sports, it's their life. They don't know any different and mentally, they are largely a collection of teenagers all the way into their mid-30's. There's not much time to think about what it may be doing to their body, it's not really their prime concern as young men who think themselves invincible (we're all like that).

Now they play a few years, make some good bank, and can't get out of bed in the morning, can't play with his kids, can't go outside without sunglasses, can't enjoy anything, can't remember anything, are unrecognizable to their families etc..

Where is there time to stop and think about what it might be costing them?

This is a sports health issue, not just the NHL, but it needs to start being a part of the conversation from top to bottom and the NHL should be spearheading it, not ignoring it*.

*Not that they are, I think they've taken great strides recently, but but the comments are applicable to the past.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Again, I would argue that the specific risks of CTE are not well known, but this is another matter. The problem with your post is that it does not address the real issue, which is this: The League is being charged with culpability for their failure to promote a safe working environment, and for their complicit endangerment of player safety and long term well being.

This is how you make it a safe working environment.

1) No contact.
2) Foam puck.
3) Padded boards.
4) Removal of skate blades.
5) Full face motorcycle helmets with NASCAR style neck braces.

The workplace in itself is dangerous, with or without the risk of CTE. Players have had throats crushed by pucks. Necks slashed by skates. Femurs shattered in collisions. Eyes blinded by pucks. etc, etc, etc......

Once the CTE issue is resolved, then we will see lawsuits for all these other injuries as well.

Basically the only way to make the game a safe work environment, is to shut down the league. And the NFL. And MMA. And Boxing...... you see where this is going.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Not knowing what CTE is and how detrimental it can be to one's health is not being "fully aware" of the risks. Full stop.

I am still of the opinion that the level of risk in this instance is not only very poorly communicated, it is unacceptable. To this point you have done nothing to demonstrate otherwise.

But here is the issue. Nobody can tell you legally that concussions/contact/fighting are what causes CTE. It can only be diagnosed after death and all of us attempt to connect the dots, which athletes can do also. Not all people who are concussed get CTE and until there is a firm connection made between the two then it will be impossible to say who knew what at the time.

If the players and/or their families are so concerned after the fact then why aren't they concerned while they are playing? The majority of the stories that I have read about depression have more to do with the fact that they are unable to transition away from the game, of being told what to do and when to do it (Rhett Warrener's comments on 960 when he called out the NHLPA for lack of help after they retire). Also I believe that the majority of the concussions are from continued hits and not fighting in the NHL (I could be wrong and would actually like some stats/data in regards to this point)

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by pylon

...The workplace in itself is dangerous, with or without the risk of CTE. Players have had throats crushed by pucks. Necks slashed by skates. Femurs shattered in collisions. Eyes blinded by pucks. etc, etc, etc......

As already noted, there is a massive difference between eliminating danger, and taken reasonable measures to minimize unnecessary risk.

If the NHL can do something to dramatically curb the onset of CTE with a negligible effect on game itself, should they do it?

If the NHL was in a position to protect Montador from sustaining CTE, should they have done so?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

But here is the issue. Nobody can tell you legally that concussions/contact/fighting are what causes CTE. It can only be diagnosed after death and all of us attempt to connect the dots, which athletes can do also. Not all people who are concussed get CTE and until there is a firm connection made between the two then it will be impossible to say who knew what at the time.

If the players and/or their families are so concerned after the fact then why aren't they concerned while they are playing? The majority of the stories that I have read about depression have more to do with the fact that they are unable to transition away from the game, of being told what to do and when to do it (Rhett Warrener's comments on 960 when he called out the NHLPA for lack of help after they retire). Also I believe that the majority of the concussions are from continued hits and not fighting in the NHL (I could be wrong and would actually like some stats/data in regards to this point)

Those comments were really insightful, gives us a really good idea of how entirely incompetant the NHLPA is. In other words, they don't do jack except for trying to maximize $$ to superstars. Everyone else (former NHLers, average NHLers) are completely thrown under the bus.