In Empire he doesn't have much skill and gets his hand chopped off. If not for jumping down the exhaust shaft, he'd easily be killed by Vader.
This is about the reasonable skill level Rey should be at.
ROTJ is supposed to take place about 1 year after Empire and 4 years after ANH. When we first see Luke in ROTJ, he is evolved, and his increased training and understanding of the force is shown throughout the movie from how he's dressed, his demeanour when entering Jaba's ship and his interactions with Yoda. This is a new Luke who has had time to hone his skills.
You have taken his time with Yoda to be 1 week, but in actuality it is implied to be a year in full training with Yoda (and Force Ben would be logical too).
Luke was getting beat down by a training drone thing on the millennium falcon in A New Hope one of the first times he uses the light sabre. There are numerous occasions of him failing with the force before he understood. The entire trilogy showcased a believable and natural progression.
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Honest question, when did they hint that he had a back story let alone a great one?
They introduced a very powerful being to an existing universe. His powers are well beyond any force user we've seen. They stated that he is very old and witnessed the rise and fall of the galactic empire. His face is covered in horrible scars. He's a dark force user but not a Sith.
Even a thirty second monologue would've been enough. Like I said it's annoying but not a fatal flaw to the movie. Typically when you introduce a very powerful being to an existing universe, they get a brief explanation of their origins.
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Luke was getting beat down by a training drone thing on the millennium falcon in A New Hope one of the first times he uses the light sabre. There are numerous occasions of him failing with the force before he understood. The entire trilogy showcased a believable and natural progression.
Exactly. TLJ was just about the action sequence payoffs. Entertaining movie, but no depth.
Why is it so hard to accept that Rey is just really powerful with the force?
It isn't.
What is hard to accept is how proficient she has been with it despite the lack of training and exposure. This would have made sense if she had some connection to Luke and Kylo and Jedi training in her past (lineage doesn't have to matter, but being exposed to it and being 'hidden' from it, potentially because of that power, would have made a lot more interesting of a story than just being good with it).
TFA set up what could have been a really good story for her progression that could explain away her Mary Sue criticisms, then it was just abandoned. Now anything related to her past involving any such training would just expose terrible storytelling, so they're just left with what the critics were calling her from the start: a Mary Sue.
In Empire he doesn't have much skill and gets his hand chopped off. If not for jumping down the exhaust shaft, he'd easily be killed by Vader.
This is about the reasonable skill level Rey should be at.
ROTJ is supposed to take place about 1 year after Empire and 4 years after ANH. When we first see Luke in ROTJ, he is evolved, and his increased training and understanding of the force is shown throughout the movie from how he's dressed, his demeanour when entering Jaba's ship and his interactions with Yoda. This is a new Luke who has had time to hone his skills.
You have taken his time with Yoda to be 1 week, but in actuality it is implied to be a year in full training with Yoda (and Force Ben would be logical too).
There is no way it was a year. Maybe a couple weeks. Otherwise the Falcon would have been lumbering through space for a year on its way to Bespin while Luke trained.
There is no way it was a year. Maybe a couple weeks. Otherwise the Falcon would have been lumbering through space for a year on its way to Bespin while Luke trained.
ESB to ROTJ would have been the year's worth of training where Luke actually became a Jedi.
The short bit of training in ESB didn't turn into much, as Luke got schooled and dismembered by Vader (and Vader wasn't even trying to kill him).
But he didn't go back to Yoda for that training, whatever it was. The next time he saw Yoda was in ROTJ.
End of ESB went from Bespin to getting his new hand on the medical frigate.
Next time we see him he has built a new light sabre, has more proficient use of the force, and is proclaimed a Jedi Master by Yoda, giving a more than heavy handed implication that the gap in the movies was spent focusing on his training.
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If anything, that clip reinforces the idea that Luke has been training with Yoda. Luke left to organize Han's rescue, and then comes back to hear Yoda tell him that his training is complete, except for facing Vader. It actually shows a progression.
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I disagree. From how I see it, Luke left Yoda, faced Vader in Empire, then trained for a year between the 2 movies (not with Yoda) then rescued Han, then returned to Yoda in this scene. If Luke had spent the year training with Yoda would he not asked these questions immediately, rather than a year in? He says "But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training." It only makes sense that this is in reference to the training Luke had in Empire. Otherwise I'd expect a different conversation that tells the audience that Luke has spent most of the past year with Yoda.
In Empire he doesn't have much skill and gets his hand chopped off. If not for jumping down the exhaust shaft, he'd easily be killed by Vader.
This is about the reasonable skill level Rey should be at.
I agree. There's something that both scenes have in common and that's that neither foe really wanted to kill the hero. They were both trying to get them to join them. So again, Rey ending up getting a strike in on a very injured Kylo Ren I don't really have a problem with.
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ROTJ is supposed to take place about 1 year after Empire and 4 years after ANH. When we first see Luke in ROTJ, he is evolved, and his increased training and understanding of the force is shown throughout the movie from how he's dressed, his demeanour when entering Jaba's ship and his interactions with Yoda. This is a new Luke who has had time to hone his skills.
You have taken his time with Yoda to be 1 week, but in actuality it is implied to be a year in full training with Yoda (and Force Ben would be logical too).
Yeah I agree, but there is still no way Luke would have ever been at the ability of someone like Kenobi or Anakin for lightsaber abilities. And Ben was likely only training with Luke for a couple years before turning.
The point is that swordsmanship is a diminishing asset in the Star Wars universe. It's not like either of Rey or Ren tore up Snoke's guards like any other old Jedi would/could have.
As for the point of Rey's general OPness, I agree it's a little bothersome. Something caught me though in what Snoke said. He said that as Kylo's power grew stronger, so would his equal in the dark. But maybe Rey is not Kylo's balance, maybe she was Snoke's.
By the way they're trying to set this up, they're going with a new order of force users and maybe Rey is patient zero. Maybe Captain can weigh in here, who was the first Jedi and were they powerful as Rey is? Or did the first Jedi stumble and bumble through using the force until they figured it out generations later?
But you did see Snoke hurling people around, electrifying them.
The Sith on the other hand. In the Legends EU Bane pretty much disintigrated people with Lightning. Used a death field to basically suck your life force out of your body and leave you a husk.
He created a thought bomb that disintegrated every force user around and trapped their spirits for eternity in an energy ball.
Oh and in one battle he pretty much destroyed an entire forest.
In terms of Grievous, for some reason the Jedi are pretty passive about actually using the force. Remember they're all about defense, so reaching out and pulling someone's arm off, probably not considered to be Jedi like.
I mean if I had the force and I was fighting Vader, I'd be randomly pushing buttons on that light bright on his chest.
Holy crap that button makes you soil yourself.
So Jedi have no problems cutting people's arms off with their laser swords, but using the force to do it is a no-no? I mean that guy on Cantina Bar was just complimenting Luke on his hair.
Heck, if I was a force user I would just snap people's femurs. They would drop, and I would move on. Plus they would have a long time to think about what they did wrong. That would make Vader way more bad ass than choking people. Plus, he wouldn't have to worry about retraining all his senior military leaders.
What is hard to accept is how proficient she has been with it despite the lack of training and exposure. This would have made sense if she had some connection to Luke and Kylo and Jedi training in her past (lineage doesn't have to matter, but being exposed to it and being 'hidden' from it, potentially because of that power, would have made a lot more interesting of a story than just being good with it).
TFA set up what could have been a really good story for her progression that could explain away her Mary Sue criticisms, then it was just abandoned. Now anything related to her past involving any such training would just expose terrible storytelling, so they're just left with what the critics were calling her from the start: a Mary Sue.
I find the "mary sue" moniker inappropriate and mildly offensive. Rey is who she is. The character needs to be powerful in the force for the story to work. She is not going to be "trained" by another Jedi. They're purposefully moving away from that circular story. She's out there figuring it out on her own, that's what makes the character interesting. The biggest "moment" in the movies to-date was when the lightsaber flew out of the snow into her hand. That's only accomplished if she takes this arc. Think of Rey as Neo. Did you have a problem with Neo in the Matrix? Just accept that she's the new Anakin or uber-force user just incredibly raw and needing direction.
Now, ideally, I'd love to see a Rey heel turn. It will never happen. But I'd love to see her take her walk in the woods of the dark side and really explore that in the next movie.
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the force allows for a natural affinity to use it.
Before Anakin was even trained he was showing a strong ability to use the force. He had heightened reactions, he was having visions of leaving Tattoine and returning.
You have to wonder about Jedi Training. I don't know if its as much Jedi Training as much as giving them some lessons on how to feel the force, and swinging a stick around. And then you basically find your own way.
Qui-Gon and Kenobi didn't share the same affinity. Obi-Wan didn't have the ability to tap into the force to see the future like Qui-Gon did.
Kenobi and Anakin were the same thing, I doubt that they trained Anakin as much as they tried to control him.
When Luke went to see Yoda, it wasn't as much training or swordsmanship as it was trying to teach Luke to tap into the Force and lose him impulsiveness.
I remember reading a interview with Lucas when he talked about the PT and he said that the one thing that he wanted everyone to see and understand was what a fully trained Jedi could do. But he also hinted that the way a Jedi used the force needed to evolve, but the Jedi were so locked in their way, grabbing babies, training them all the same way etc was doomed to fail. They were training Jedi to fight a war from a 1000 years ago, meanwhile the Sith evolved in their training as they worked to gain a better understanding of the force and what it could do and because of that they destroyed the these fully trained Jedi.
Luke then screwed things up by trying to go back to formalized training.
With Rey, he gave her the formal ability to touch the force and feel it, the rest she's going to have to figure out on her own and decide where her talents lie.
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They also literally had the ability to download whatever knowledge they wanted into someone's brain in a fraction of a second in the Matrix's universe. That analogy is fairly ludicrous.
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They also literally had the ability to download whatever knowledge they wanted into someone's brain in a fraction of a second in the Matrix's universe. That analogy is fairly ludicrous.
He failed a lot during training
