Will the real Islam please stand up?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Looger

no, i said that OUR media isn't the place to look.

try israel's, it's more balanced on the muslim issue than ours.

Well I spent 30 minutes looking at Israeli and Egyptian newspapers. Quite a bit about Muslims/Islamics and how politically active they are becoming. Also a ton about how the Muslims/Islamics or Israelis will use all of the "tools" at their disposal for advancing their movements. Most of it was anti-Israel/USA. Didnt find anything that was in the peaceful rhetoric or suggesting working with others to find solutions.
Maybe you ought to go read some?

Heres some newspaper links

[feartheflames]

I'll tell you my opinion, I am a muslim, I am tired of being hated, I am tired of being called horrible names,I am tired of defending myself, when I have never in my life intentionally hurt anyone. in the aftermath of 9/11 there were hundreds of hate crime against muslims,mosques were bombed, women wearing hijabs were killed. and countless other incients. Why cant I just live my life and not have to defend myself EVERYWHERE I GO. You have to understand every religion has its radicals, in Christianity those radical beliefs that carried on for thousands of years, there have been horrible crimes and injustices carried out in the name of Christianity. Try being empathetic, imagine life for an averagae muslim, you are a 3rd world country, you barely have enough money or food to live, you dont participate in any terrorist activity, then you have the biggest country in the world threatening war if you dont aid them in invading your neighbouring country. countries like amsterdam have anti-muslim political parties in leadership, comic strips ridicule and mock youre religion, people hate you and want your entire religion oblilberated, you fear the terrorist freaks that rule your country and all you want is to do is live and be left alone.

[Calgaryborn]

Here are links to two Islamic sites who obviously do not shed a favorable light on Islam historically or presently:

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyame###ayate/index.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/index.html

Of course one could disregard these sites as biased but, they do give references for a lot of what they say. In chapter 3 of an on-line book from the answering Islam site they provide the following quotes from the Koran:


The Qur'an Says¼
Introduction of JihadThe faithful wish for a chapter to be revealed, but when one is given that mentions warfare, the weak look to Mohammed as if they would faint because of their fear of death (47:20).
Slaughter of OpponentsMuslims must fight the unbelievers who oppose them. Muslims are to obey the Islamic rules of war. They must kill the unbelievers wherever they find them. They are to drive them out of the lands they took from the Muslims. Enduring trouble and oppression from the unbelievers is worse than the Muslim’s act of the all out slaughter of the unbelievers (2:190-191). Muslims are excused from fighting during holidays since their carnage of the idol worshipers is justified by the persecution suffered by the Muslims (2:217).
Fight for IslamWhether Muslims are unarmed or well equipped, they are to march on and fight for the cause of Allah (9:41). It is a bargain for Muslims to give of themselves and their wealth to fight for the cause of Islam since there will be a rewarded with Paradise. There are benefits in the present as well. There will be help from above to win quick victories. Spread this good news to the faithful. Believers, be Allah’s helpers! Jesus’ disciples were such and they received help against the other Israelites who did not believe. They triumphed over their enemies (61:10-14).
Only Assurance of ParadiseSoldiers, who die in battle fighting for Islam, are promised admission to the Eternal Gardens or Paradise (47:4-6, 3:169-171).
Spoils of WarWhat is taken from villages, as spoils of war, must not be divided among the rich only. They will be given to Mohammed and the poor. Mohammed will distribute the possessions as he sees fit and no one should complain (59:7, 8:1). When the Muslims go forth, to take the possessions of others, some who are unworthy will say that they want to fight, but Muhammad will tell them that they are excluded (48:15,16). Allah knows of other booty, which the Muslims have not yet taken (48:18-21). Enjoy the spoils of war (8:69).
War among MuslimsIf fighting breaks out among Muslims, everyone should fight against the party in the wrong until they submit and then be fair with them (49:9).
Promise of VictoryAllah promised rich booty and speedy victory for the Muslim warriors. In addition, they will have protection from their enemies. Their victory will be a sign for Muslims. If unbelievers come against the Muslims they will retreat with no one to help them or protect them (48:20-22, 8:7-10). Those who only have Allah, Mohammed and faithful Muslims as friends are sure to triumph (5:56). Victory only comes from Allah (3:126).
Muslims Are RuthlessThose who follow Mohammed are ruthless to the unbelievers but compassionate to one another (48:29).
FearThe Jews who supported the fight against the Muslims were miraculously brought out of their strongholds and frightened. This is why the Muslims were able to kill them or take them captive. The Muslims became masters of the Jews’ lands, homes and property (33:26,27). Gather a large number of men and cavalry so that you may strike fear into the hearts of your enemy (8:60).
Behead and MaimThe hearts of the infidels will be terrorized so Muslims should attack with courage and behead them and cut off all their fingers. Maiming your victims will show that opposing Allah and Mohammed results in severe punishment. They are going to hell (8:12-14).
Treatment of EnemiesThose who make war on Allah and Mohammed should be killed, crucified, have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides or be exiled. They must be degraded in this world and doomed in the afterlife (5:33). They are not to be forced to become Muslims (2:256).
Damnation for Muslim CowardsWhen Muslims meet infidels in battle, they must not retreat except for strategic reasons. Anyone who turns to run from fear, he will be punished and certainly hell will be his home (8:16).
Make War on the UnbelieversMuslims are to continue fighting unbelievers until the religion of Islam is dominant everywhere (8:39). Make war on the unbelievers and treat them harshly. Hell is their unhappy journey’s end (9:73, 66:9).
Break TreatiesMuslims may break their treaties with unbelievers if they feel that the infidels are being treacherous. Unbelievers will never get the better of Muslims. They should be attacked with such a mighty force that it frightens them, but if they want to surrender, then make peace (8:57-61).
Muslims Will Always Be VictoriousIf there are one hundred good Muslims, they will vanquish two hundred unbelievers. If there are one thousand, they will cause two thousand unbelievers to flee because they have no understanding (8:66-67, 3:126).
PrisonersMohammed should not possess prisoners of war until final victory over their land has been accomplished. Muslims want the spoils of war too early because they seek worldly rewards rather than heavenly rewards. Muslims should enjoy the good and lawful things they have gained from warfare and not seek illegal gain (8:67-69).
ConcubinesIt is prohibited for Muslims to marry women who are already married, unless they are their slaves which they have possessed by force of battle (4:24). Muslims are those who abstain from sexual relations beyond their wives and slave girls they have captured in battle. Such relationships with prisoners are blameless (23:5-6). Slaves do not share equally the riches Allah gives their owners. Their owners do not fear their slaves as they do their fellow Muslims (30:28).
Kill the IdolatersOnce a holiday from war is ended, Muslims are to kill the idol worshipers wherever they find them. They are to capture them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they convert, pray and give alms then they will be allowed to live (9:5).
Make War Year RoundAllah created twelve months with four being sacred, but since the unbelievers fight in all twelve months, it is allowed for Muslims to make war against the idol worshipers in all twelve months (9:36).
Fight against EveryoneMuslims, fight everyone who reject Islam, even against Christians and Jews who have rejected Islam, until they pay regular financial tribute with willing submission and feel themselves completely subjected to their Islamic conquerors (9:29).
Defeat All ReligionsAllah sent Mohammed with the true religion so that it may prevail over all other religions (9:33).
Kill and Be KilledIn return for their lives and contributions, Muslims are given a Garden Paradise. This is promised to those who fight, kill and are killed for the cause. This same message is in the Torah, the Gospel and the Qur'an (9:111).
Fight NeighborsMuslims, make war against the infidels who live around them and they are to demonstrate harshness to them (9:123).
Change or Be KilledIf the hypocrites and troublemakers in the city do not change, Allah will move the Muslims to seize and kill them without mercy wherever they find them (33:60,61).
Battle the Friends of SatanTrue Muslims fight for the cause of Allah but the infidels do battle for the cause of idols. Fight the friends of Satan (4:76).

I don't know what translation they used or if it was the common English translation used. Could someone tell me if these quotes are correct?

I think there is more than one issue being presented here. What I'm most interested in knowing is if parts of the Koran encourages the conduct we see on the news regularly.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by feartheflames

I'll tell you my opinion, I am a muslim, I am tired of being hated, I am tired of being called horrible names,I am tired of defending myself, when I have never in my life intentionally hurt anyone. in the aftermath of 9/11 there were hundreds of hate crime against muslims,mosques were bombed, women wearing hijabs were killed. and countless other incients. Why cant I just live my life and not have to defend myself EVERYWHERE I GO. You have to understand every religion has its radicals, in Christianity those radical beliefs that carried on for thousands of years, there have been horrible crimes and injustices carried out in the name of Christianity. Try being empathetic, imagine life for an averagae muslim, you are a 3rd world country, you barely have enough money or food to live, you dont participate in any terrorist activity, then you have the biggest country in the world threatening war if you dont aid them in invading your neighbouring country. countries like amsterdam have anti-muslim political parties in leadership, comic strips ridicule and mock youre religion, people hate you and want your entire religion oblilberated, you fear the terrorist freaks that rule your country and all you want is to do is live and be left alone.

Good call...yep Christianity and Islam have been involved in horrific battles...often against each other and sometimes against their own people.
The average Muslim/Christian is in fact from a 3rd world or poor country...those needing any kind of miracle to believe in...to help them out of their morasse. Educated countries are in fact turning away from theism at a great pace.
The fact you are tired of hatred has everything to do with choice...choice of a religion that eschews hatred and crys bigotry at every turn...yet veils its women in cloth and humiliates them at every turn.
I personally wouldnt waste one minute of my time supporting an organization that doesnt believe in equality.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Here are links to two Islamic sites who obviously do not shed a favorable light on Islam historically or presently:

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyame###ayate/index.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/index.html

Of course one could disregard these sites as biased but, they do give references for a lot of what they say. In chapter 3 of an on-line book from the answering Islam site they provide the following quotes from the Koran:

Wow BornAgain...didnt you get peed off at me and the other Atheists for doing the same thing you just did?
Shame on you. Remember this the next time we haul out your Bible and Christian practises to use against you.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by feartheflames

I'll tell you my opinion, I am a muslim, I am tired of being hated, I am tired of being called horrible names,I am tired of defending myself, when I have never in my life intentionally hurt anyone. in the aftermath of 9/11 there were hundreds of hate crime against muslims,mosques were bombed, women wearing hijabs were killed. and countless other incients. Why cant I just live my life and not have to defend myself EVERYWHERE I GO. You have to understand every religion has its radicals, in Christianity those radical beliefs that carried on for thousands of years, there have been horrible crimes and injustices carried out in the name of Christianity. Try being empathetic, imagine life for an averagae muslim, you are a 3rd world country, you barely have enough money or food to live, you dont participate in any terrorist activity, then you have the biggest country in the world threatening war if you dont aid them in invading your neighbouring country. countries like amsterdam have anti-muslim political parties in leadership, comic strips ridicule and mock youre religion, people hate you and want your entire religion oblilberated, you fear the terrorist freaks that rule your country and all you want is to do is live and be left alone.

Well buddy you have heard the smack from those who hate religions and those who think your religion is the wrong one. Me I'm perfectly fine with your choice of religion and fine with religion in general. I just don't accept the we are so hard done by that we just have to throw up our arms and resign ourselves. Do your leaders have to do that as well or your clerics?

I'm fully expecting you to stand up for your religion and I think you should. So should the other ones and they should all hammer anybody within their own religion that is way out of line. What the other religions or the religion haters are doing or even the other countries should be irrelevant.

It's your religion -- Defend it.

[feartheflames]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Good call...yep Christianity and Islam have been involved in horrific battles...often against each other and sometimes against their own people.
The average Muslim/Christian is in fact from a 3rd world or poor country...those needing any kind of miracle to believe in...to help them out of their morasse. Educated countries are in fact turning away from theism at a great pace.
The fact you are tired of hatred has everything to do with choice...choice of a religion that eschews hatred and crys bigotry at every turn...yet veils its women in cloth and humiliates them at every turn.
I personally wouldnt waste one minute of my time supporting an organization that doesnt believe in equality.

the oppression against women is misunderstood, Islam actually gives women huge rights, Its the misinterpertation of Islam that leads to these discussions. Islam allows women to divorce their husbands, In islam you are not allowed to force your women to work in our out of the house, it is her choice to do so. Islam has asked their people to dress modestly> the hijab( worn by orthodox Muslim women) is not so different from what a nun wears is it ? how about the way a orthodox muslim man dresses not so different from a Rabbi? i am a muslim woman, I dont wear a hijab and i have been treated with equality, respect and dignity.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Wow BornAgain...didnt you get peed off at me and the other Atheists for doing the same thing you just did?
Shame on you. Remember this the next time we haul out your Bible and Christian practises to use against you.

Nope I didn't get "peed". I just didn't see the profit in arguing with you doctrines from a book you don't believe in. I'm not seeking a argument from a Muslim regarding their holy book. I'm asking if they would mind affirming or correcting some preconceived notions concerning their book.

I guess the difference between you and I is that I acknowledge what I'm ignorant of and don't try to hide my ignorance with abrasive speech and arrogance.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Here are links to two Islamic sites who obviously do not shed a favorable light on Islam historically or presently:

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyame###ayate/index.html

Of course one could disregard these sites as biased but,

It is an insidious, devilish disease creeping into the veins of the world.

Nice. What next, a white power link?


of the world.It is an insidious, devilish disease creeping into the veins of the world.

It is an insidious, devilish disease creeping into the veins of the world.It is an insidious, devilish disease creeping into the veins of the worl

[feartheflames]

I've had enough of this thread ( its stressing me out), you are entitled to your own opinion and you have every right to express them > i just want to say That I am proud te be born and raised Canadian, in the face of hate crimes, our leadership in Canada stood up before any other country, I cant say how much I appreciate that. I am now going to go talk some hockey... you boys have a nice day

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I'm looking everywhere and all I hear is the the usual excuse. The Western media control the entire planet and so despite the fact that virtually every Muslim in the world is preaching patience nobody hears the message because we don't want to. Hmmm sorry but no but the terrorists are making a HUGE NOISE and in reply I don't hear anything of significance.

Okay, how about actually trying to find out what the majority believe:

Start with the largest Muslim population in the world, the Indonesians (195 million). Recently the Indonesian government arrested a number of radical clerics. You can read about the reaction of the leader of the largest muslim group in the country, who approves the arrests, and speaks out against violence.

"When I was in Ambon [the capital of the restive Maluku province] I met with leaders of 11 radical organizations. I told them that Islam has never taught offensive actions against other religions. I told them that what Prophet Muhammad did [in battle] was just in self defense; it was never aggression.
"Soon after Prophet Muhammad had conquered Mecca, he said that everybody, including the enemies, were secure. The churches and synagogues could hold services without fear. No single tree was to be uprooted or cut. This means that there must be no killing."

http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/782.cfm

Here's the top Islamic clerics in Pakistan (161 million) have to say:

"Islam does not allow killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants under any circumstances," he said in an interview with the BBC News website."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4711003.stm

Or leading clerics in India (154 million muslims):

"Islam is the religion of peace. The Quran says that killing even one human being amounts to killing the entire humanity. There could be no justification for killing an innocent man and such activities become highly condemnable if the perpetrators use holy names."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/N...11,curpg-2.cms

Those are the leading clerics for over 500 million Muslims, (more than a third of the worldwide population). And I don't doubt that if you went through most of the other populous muslim nations, you'd find similar perspectives. That's a pretty significant representation of objection to terrorism, and should bear more weight in determining the perspective of Muslims in regards to terrorism than clerics who preach to relatively small muslim populations.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

It is an insidious, devilish disease creeping into the veins of the world.

Nice. What next, a white power link?

I think the Hindus have some definite issues with Islam. Might have something to do with the power struggle taking place between them right now. For the record I did acknowledge the bias and suggest the only value could be in the things they said that was backed up with references which could be followed.


of the world.It is an insidious, devilish disease creeping into the veins of the world.

It is an insidious, devilish disease creeping into the veins of the world.It is an insidious, devilish disease creeping into the veins of the worl

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by feartheflames

I've had enough of this thread ( its stressing me out), you are entitled to your own opinion and you have every right to express them > i just want to say That I am proud te be born and raised Canadian, in the face of hate crimes, our leadership in Canada stood up before any other country, I cant say how much I appreciate that. I am now going to go talk some hockey... you boys have a nice day

Ahh so the answer to the question of whether the real Islam will stand up is ---NO. At least no evidence to support it from this small survey.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Ahh so the answer to the question of whether the real Islam will stand up is ---NO. At least no evidence to support it from this small survey.

Hmm. Maybe that's part of the problem. You appear to believe that you'll get a definitive answer to this kind of question on a hockey message board. No wonder you think the entire Islamic world is silent or even complicit on these matters.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Hmm. Maybe that's part of the problem. You appear to believe that you'll get a definitive answer to this kind of question on a hockey message board. No wonder you think the entire Islamic world is silent or even complicit on these matters.

No oh simplistic one I don't but perhaps there would have been someone/anyone who could have presented even the slightest argument that Muslims are in fact standing up against those who are so called extremists.

So no your sorry little excuse for an insult dosen't add up to much.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

No oh simplistic one I don't but perhaps there would have been someone/anyone who could have presented even the slightest argument that Muslims are in fact standing up against those who are so called extremists.

So no your sorry little excuse for an insult dosen't add up to much.

Well it was more of an observation than an insult.

Octothorp posted something about 20 minutes ago. Did you see it?

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Well I spent 30 minutes looking at Israeli and Egyptian newspapers. Quite a bit about Muslims/Islamics and how politically active they are becoming. Also a ton about how the Muslims/Islamics or Israelis will use all of the "tools" at their disposal for advancing their movements. Most of it was anti-Israel/USA. Didnt find anything that was in the peaceful rhetoric or suggesting working with others to find solutions.
Maybe you ought to go read some?

Heres some newspaper links

took you 30 minutes to find a list of what's mostly state-controlled agenda-driven crap?

that's a list of the FOX news of the arab world, congrats.

my point is that people have to go beyond what OUR media tells us.

turning from one biased junkhole to another will not do anything but reinforce peoples' ignorance.

the arab world's media is seriously at fault for much of the rise of terrorists in their lands.

check which countries' governments all that junk comes from, and which countries are US toadies. results may surprise.

and yes, al-jazeera does give lip service to extremists. but i've never heard of another arabic-language tv network that actually interviewed israeli cabinet ministers before. they give lip service to everyone, including voices that 23 governments over there are deathly afraid of - namely voices calling for accountability from leaders that bow to US corporate interests.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Looger

took you 30 minutes to find a list of what's mostly state-controlled agenda-driven crap?

that's a list of the FOX news of the arab world, congrats.

my point is that people have to go beyond what OUR media tells us.

turning from one biased junkhole to another will not do anything but reinforce peoples' ignorance.

the arab world's media is seriously at fault for much of the rise of terrorists in their lands.

check which countries' governments all that junk comes from, and which countries are US toadies. results may surprise.

and yes, al-jazeera does give lip service to extremists. but i've never heard of another arabic-language tv network that actually interviewed israeli cabinet ministers before. they give lip service to everyone, including voices that 23 governments over there are deathly afraid of - namely voices calling for accountability from leaders that bow to US corporate interests.

Jeebuz man get a grip...you asked me to look at Israeli Newspapers....

[feartheflames]

I know I said I would leave , but i just actually want to clarify my beliefs before I did, I believe that Chritianity, Islam and Judaism were all once the same religion, I believe that perception has seperated them, they are all eerily simmilar ( it is not a coinsidence). I believe we waste way too much time hating each other and pointing fingers, when we should just live and let live. My obejective on particpating on this board wasn't to insult or anger anyone. I just wanted to have my voice heard> there are mnay great Muslims out there ( anyone remember Malcom X). You are entitled to your own opinion. I just wanted people to know that not all muslims are terrorists, we are not blood thirsty, the mass majority of us are good people who just need to catch a break. I also recognize that the few idiots claiming to fight in the name of Allah, aren't making it easy on us either, just my two cents.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Interesting although off topic. Where does Revelations tell people not to interpret it? I know we are not to add to it or take away from it. It also says that there is a blessing bestowed upon those who read it.

You do realize that one cannot go beyond quoting a passage word for word(in Greek) in a monotone voice before one could be accused of interpreting scriptures.

I guess what I learned from being raised catholic that pretty much saying that this person might be the anti-Christ and this points to the apocalypse as said in Revelations is generally adding to it and using it to cause fear.