Landeskog to have knee surgery

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

It will never get fixed because it isn’t a loophole. Just like the NCAA rule isn’t a loophole.

Teams and players both like it. And the nhl would never admit that teams are putting guys on LTIR under false pretences, holding them out longer than they need to be or even exaggerating injuries for the sake of cap circumvention.

The only real solution is to take advantage of it. Anyone who has a big cap hit and is underperforming and plays for a cup contender should be sat out and put on LTIR. It also works for superstars who are legitimately hurt or have nagging injuries.

By this logic, the steroid era in baseball would have continued forever.

If LTIR abuse becomes rampant across the league, it will lead to ballooning player salaries. At some point the league will want to put a stop to it, even if they don't care about competitive balance or ethics in general.

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You can't do that, and nobody has yet.
The only cases so far have been superstars who are legitimately hurt. I keep asking, and so far nobody has ever answered me: If Vegas's moves are all about cap circumvention, why did they pick Stone of all players to put on LTIR?

No one (or hardly anyone) is accusing Vegas of circumventing the cap on purpose. We're just saying the LTIR rules create an unhealthy incentive structure and potential for abuse in general.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Who cares about Vegas?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

By this logic, the steroid era in baseball would have continued forever.

If LTIR abuse becomes rampant across the league, it will lead to ballooning player salaries. At some point the league will want to put a stop to it, even if they don't care about competitive balance or ethics in general.

But mlb did turn a blind eye to the steroid era. It only stopped because law enforcement got involved. The league didn’t stop it because of a moral quandary they found themselves in.

Where the nhl would out a stop to this is if/when teams start doing exactly what we’re discussing. Contenders putting cap dumps on LTIR then trading for more assets and bringing back the player on day 1 of the playoffs.

Holding out Kane and Kucherov were minor because it was more of a case of getting back to 100% vs healthy enough to play.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I am guessing there are actually several more less-high profile incidents that has escaped everyone's notice.


Who knows? WE know. When Kucherov had his surgery the timeline was right on the line of the end of the regular season. And why would it be "magic" that a player's injury was healed and rehabbed in accordance with the scheduled timeline? It boggles my mind that people continue to honestly think that TB would not have preferred to have had Kucherov available to them for the entire season last year. Just as Vegas is demonstrating now, having your best player on IR is NEVER ideal.

It was long term yes. But he came back on game 1 of the playoffs and was fine. How can you be certain he couldn't have come back 2 weeks early?

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Holding out Kane and Kucherov were minor because it was more of a case of getting back to 100% vs healthy enough to play.

So what would you consider to be 'not minor' then? Holding out for an extra 20 games after the player is healthy enough to play? 25? 30? 35? 40? A whole season?

If players are required to be taken off LTIR the moment they are healthy enough to play, it forces the team to make enough cap room available right away to accomodate them. This forces the team to make tough decisions, as it should. Letting teams keep players on the LTIR for as long as is convenient, gives them a way of avoiding making those tough decisions. In my opinion, this severely undermines the entire purpose of the salary cap.

Then again, maybe this is the way the league and the players want it to be. Who knows. All I know is, this does create an unhealthy incentive structure, and gives an advantage to those who abuse it over those who don't. I don't like it one bit, but then again, I'm not holding my breath on the league doing anything about it unless/until it starts hurting them financially.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

By this logic, the steroid era in baseball would have continued forever.

If LTIR abuse becomes rampant across the league, it will lead to ballooning player salaries.

50 percent of HRR is 50 percent of HRR. Where's the balloon?

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

50 percent of HRR is 50 percent of HRR. Where's the balloon?

Teams increasing their payrolls knowing they can stuff high priced guys on LTIR as needed...

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Teams increasing their payrolls knowing they can stuff high priced guys on LTIR as needed...

The total they pay out is still 50 percent of HRR. Salaries don't actually increase, only the distribution changes.

Now, to fix the last part of your post:

‘…knowing they can stuff high-priced guys on LTIR if they can somehow talk them into getting totally unnecessary surgery’. Good luck with that.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The total they pay out is still 50 percent of HRR. Salaries don't actually increase, only the distribution changes.

Revenues don't increase, but expenses (salaries) can.

if they can somehow talk them into getting totally unnecessary surgery’. Good luck with that.

What's to stop teams from saying certain players slipped in the shower and suffered concussions?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Revenues don't increase, but expenses (salaries) can.

Then it comes out of escrow, and total salaries remain at 50 percent of HRR.

The salary cap has been in place for 17 years now. Haven't you figured that part out yet?

What's to stop teams from saying certain players slipped in the shower and suffered concussions?

Teams don't get to make that call. Concussion protocol is conducted by league employees in every building.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

So what would you consider to be 'not minor' then? Holding out for an extra 20 games after the player is healthy enough to play? 25? 30? 35? 40? A whole season?

If players are required to be taken off LTIR the moment they are healthy enough to play, it forces the team to make enough cap room available right away to accomodate them. This forces the team to make tough decisions, as it should. Letting teams keep players on the LTIR for as long as is convenient, gives them a way of avoiding making those tough decisions. In my opinion, this severely undermines the entire purpose of the salary cap.

Then again, maybe this is the way the league and the players want it to be. Who knows. All I know is, this does create an unhealthy incentive structure, and gives an advantage to those who abuse it over those who don't. I don't like it one bit, but then again, I'm not holding my breath on the league doing anything about it unless/until it starts hurting them financially.

I don’t see how you can ever definitively determine a player’s health. And certainly not with 100% certainty or their specific level of health.

Guys have been asked to fake injuries in the cfl to go on the injured list. It effectively becomes a taxi squad of guys ready to slot in at any time.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Revenues don't increase, but expenses (salaries) can.

Players salaries are directly linked to revenues, so no, they cannot.

What's to stop teams from saying certain players slipped in the shower and suffered concussions?

The NHL does actually exercise oversight in these situations.


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[ThisIsAnOutrage]

IMO, anyone who thinks LA and Colordao didn't pick the timing where players in need of surgery/rehab/rest to abuse to the LTIR cap rule is a rube. They absolutley are.

One solution could be to go the other way instead of salary cap in the playoffs. Two weeks before the TDL, the highest amount of salary on LTIR by any one team becomes the amount all teams can exceed the cap for the rest of the season and the playoffs; salary on LTIR counts toward the cap from that point in the season onward. Promotes trades, salary, and no one team gets to cheat.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Players salaries are directly linked to revenues, so no, they cannot.

I stand corrected, but the league could still potentially deal with financial penalties in the form of fewer fans coming to games, buying merch, etc, if the LTIR situation gets out of hand.

The NHL does actually exercise oversight in these situations.

How exactly do you definitively prove that someone doesn't have a concussion? Also, how do you definitively prove that someone recovering from knee surgery or a high ankle sprain has healed enough to be able to play? I think what Cecil said is absolutely correct, there's no way of knowing for sure. That's why, to me, there's a decent case for abolishing the LTIR cap hit exemption (or maybe changing it to a certain % of the cap hit is discounted instead of the whole thing).

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I stand corrected, but the league could still potentially deal with financial penalties in the form of fewer fans coming to games, buying merch, etc, if the LTIR situation gets out of hand.


How exactly do you definitively prove that someone doesn't have a concussion? Also, how do you definitively prove that someone recovering from knee surgery or a high ankle sprain has healed enough to be able to play? I think what Cecil said is absolutely correct, there's no way of knowing for sure. That's why, to me, there's a decent case for abolishing the LTIR cap hit exemption (or maybe changing it to a certain % of the cap hit is discounted instead of the whole thing).

I think generally only a subset of hard core fans are even talking about this
I can’t see it becoming enough of a thing where there is some sort of declining interest as a result

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ThisIsAnOutrage

IMO, anyone who thinks LA and Colordao didn't pick the timing where players in need of surgery/rehab/rest to abuse to the LTIR cap rule is a rube. They absolutley are.

One solution could be to go the other way instead of salary cap in the playoffs. Two weeks before the TDL, the highest amount of salary on LTIR by any one team becomes the amount all teams can exceed the cap for the rest of the season and the playoffs; salary on LTIR counts toward the cap from that point in the season onward. Promotes trades, salary, and no one team gets to cheat.

Of course teams will pick when a player will have surgery, if they can. Why wouldn't they?

IMO, that isn't circumvention. Circumvention would be faking an injury, or extending it if the player is ready to return

[ThisIsAnOutrage]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Of course teams will pick when a player will have surgery, if they can. Why wouldn't they?

IMO, that isn't circumvention. Circumvention would be faking an injury, or extending it if the player is ready to return

I agree. However, I said "abuse" not "circumvent" or "contravene.
'

[Enoch Root]

Didn't say you did - replied to your timing comment, and also replied to the conversation in general, which has seen some claims of circumvention and cheating.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Based on the limited history of usage, I doubt there's any pressing need for the league to change this. But it is a potential loophole the Flames could take advantage of and as long as it is there and we have an eligible player, I think we should use it.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Based on the limited history of usage, I doubt there's any pressing need for the league to change this.

Does Tampa still win the cup last year if they're forced to have a cap-compliant team in the playoffs? I'm not convinced.

You're right though, the league probably won't change it; from their perspective, they don't have any reason to do so. But for those who care about competitive balance and fairness, this sucks.

From a Flames perspective, as much as it sucks to abuse things that aren't meant to be abused, they kind of have to, otherwise, they'll be at a disadvantage.