[PGT] Flames lose 4-3 to Penguins - Page 4 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

FlameZilla · 12-21-2013, 02:56 PM

I'm really happy with Backlund's play. Surely if he keeps this up he'll start putting up points.

Byron is a great addition to this team. Like FDW said: I wrote him off. Glad to see him playing like a solid NHLer.

flamesfever · 12-21-2013, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike F

So the Flames should only do things that will automatically make a player a superstar?

The question at every point is: will X be the best for Monahan's development? Not, will X automatically make Monahan a superstar?

Many feel that Monahan's development would be aided by playing at the World Jrs, nothing more.

I believe that both Monahan's and Baertschi's development would have been better served by keeping them on the same line throughout the year.

BigRed · 12-21-2013, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

I'm still trying to figure out what David Jones brings to this team. He's not horrible or costing the team wins, but he's just............there. Wish he had one quality about him that would really help the team out.

David Moss 2.0

As to what he brings -- a salary that keeps us above the cap floor.

EDIT: slow in the draw, lifetjmefan

Mike F · 12-21-2013, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $ven27

One of the few times I agree with Ashasx here. Jones brings nothing to this team, at least with Tanguay we'd get points from him and another trading option to bring more assets in. They traded their two biggest buyout candidates in Jones and O'Brien for Tanguay and Sarich, who are both playing well for the Avs (although tangs is currently injured), bad trade at the time, and still is. Although people will say that Tanguay sulked last year, which is irrelevant.

O'Brien has been fine, as I posted above, and the one consistent good story this year has been the team's attitude and work ethic, which Jones has contributed to and Tanguay would have detracted from.

Flames are closer to where they want to eventually be after the trade, regardless of Jones' lack of positives on the scoresheet.

FlameZilla · 12-21-2013, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRed

David Moss $4.0 million

fyp

$ven27 · 12-21-2013, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike F

O'Brien has been fine, as I posted above, and the one consistent good story this year has been the team's attitude and work ethic, which Jones has contributed to and Tanguay would have detracted from.

Flames are closer to where they want to eventually be after the trade, regardless of Jones' lack of positives on the scoresheet.

My point is value wise it was a bad deal, which is the opposite of what is trying to be accomplished. We could've gotten more for Tanguay then David Moss 2.0. Between trading Iggy, Tangs, and Bouwmeester, we should have more quality pieces to show for it then we do.

Jiggy · 12-21-2013, 03:15 PM

During a rebuild you want good vets around your young team. Tanguay floating and sulking would do nothing but bring bad habits to the team.

Mike F · 12-21-2013, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $ven27

My point is value wise it was a bad deal, which is the opposite of what is trying to be accomplished. We could've gotten more for Tanguay then David Moss 2.0.

You have a link to something supporting those facts?

Beside that, the Flames didn't trade Tanguay for Jones, they traded Tanguay and Sarich for Jones and O'Brien. Given O'Brien's age, mobility, and extra year on a good contract, he was an upgrade on Sarich, which has to be factored in when evaluating the return for Tanguay

$ven27 · 12-21-2013, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike F

You have a link to something supporting those facts?

Common sense my friend. a 50-60 point winger with a 3.5m salary could've landed a 1st + a meh prospect IMO. Burke recently made a comment about the returns on Iggy and Bouwmeester being sub-par (or something along those lines) and I doubt he was solely talking about only those deals.

Mike F · 12-21-2013, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $ven27

Common sense my friend. a 50-60 point winger with a 3.5m salary could've landed a 1st + a meh prospect IMO.

You're in dream world, IMO

$ven27 · 12-21-2013, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike F

You're in dream world, IMO

Considering Paul Gaustad and Kyle Quincey have also returned a first rounder, I highly doubt that. It's a dream worth if you consider Shane O'Brien and Jones an adequate return for Tanguay.

@ nik- : When I say prospect, it's more along the lines of a Paul Byron/C level prospect, not necessarily a solid prospect.

nik- · 12-21-2013, 03:30 PM

A 1st and a prospect is too high, but I think it's quite reasonable to expect that Tanguay could have got us a 2nd from someone.

JiriHrdina · 12-21-2013, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nik-

A 1st and a prospect is too high, but I think it's quite reasonable to expect that Tanguay could have got us a 2nd from someone.

Not sure that's true. The only way he was going to get dealt was for another bad contract which is exactly what happened

nik- · 12-21-2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Not sure that's true. The only way he was going to get dealt was for another bad contract which is exactly what happened

I don't think that's necessarily true. He's poison here because he was solely an Iginla compliment, but 3.5 for a 50 point pass first player isn't necessarily a bad contract. Just bad for us.

getbak · 12-21-2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $ven27

Considering Paul Gaustad and Kyle Quincey have also returned a first rounder, I highly doubt that. It's a dream worth if you consider Shane O'Brien and Jones an adequate return for Tanguay.

@ nik- : When I say prospect, it's more along the lines of a Paul Byron/C level prospect, not necessarily a solid prospect.

Gaustad and Quincey were both deadline trades of expiring contracts. Tanguay had three seasons remaining on his contract.

$ven27 · 12-21-2013, 03:41 PM

Pretty much what Nik- said, to much of CP Tangs is a poison, but excluding the fact that he's "poison" the value we got back for him was sub-par.

bucksmasher · 12-21-2013, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $ven27

One of the few times I agree with Ashasx here. Jones brings nothing to this team, at least with Tanguay we'd get points from him and another trading option to bring more assets in. They traded their two biggest buyout candidates in Jones and O'Brien for Tanguay and Sarich, who are both playing well for the Avs (although tangs is currently injured), bad trade at the time, and still is. Although people will say that Tanguay sulked last year, which is irrelevant.

If Tanguay was around here this year he'd be garnering about the same return Jones would currently bring. And if he was putting up points he would just be ######ing the rebuild and teaching rookies how to dog fak in the NHL.

We are supposed to suck right now, it is our time to suck. Embrace it. Jones is helping the suck without being the downer pouty pants Tanguay is.

Calgary4LIfe · 12-21-2013, 03:52 PM

David Jones is not David Moss 2.0. I would trade Jones for Moss any given day of the week. Moss was frequently hurt, but he actually scored. He was also very versatile. I was sad to see Moss leave, but he was just hurt too much.

As for the Tanguay trade - I find it difficult to defend it at all. Talk to any Av's fan, and they will tell you they assumed both Jones and O'Brien had negative value. Flames were so desperate for some beef, that Feaster ended up trading for these two. For Jones to be effective, he has to play a hard-nosed drive the net style - and when he does that, he ends up hurt. He was that way on the Avs, and so far he is that way on the Flames. He was great when he first arrived here, then he got injured, and now he hasn't been the same since, right? Yep, that's Jones for you. @ 4 million.

O'Brien was a healthy scratch. You can say O'Brien for Sarich was a push at best. Sarich brought leadership and more grit than O'Brien has ever brought so far, and better defending. Yep, he was older, but he brought those to the team more consistently than O'Brien. As a forward, you don't really have to keep your head up when O'Brien is on the ice. When does anyone remember a big check? He got into 1 fight thus far (and Sarich would fight too).

If Jones would play the way Jones does when Jones is effective, I would argue that this is a win for the Flames - at least given the need to jettison a 'sulking' player. Tanguay - even with the sulking - is a good distributor of the puck. Flames didn't have to be in such a rush to unload him - just like Cammalleri.

FAN · 12-21-2013, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike F

O'Brien has been fine, as I posted above, and the one consistent good story this year has been the team's attitude and work ethic, which Jones has contributed to and Tanguay would have detracted from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike F

the Flames didn't trade Tanguay for Jones, they traded Tanguay and Sarich for Jones and O'Brien. Given O'Brien's age, mobility, and extra year on a good contract, he was an upgrade on Sarich, which has to be factored in when evaluating the return for Tanguay

You lost me there when you talked about O'Brien being an upgrade over Sarich, especially after you talked about attitude and work ethic. Sarich is playing over 17 minutes a game for one of the best defensive teams in the league and a team that has 15 more points (with games in hand). O'Brien is playing 10+ minutes for one of the worst defensive teams in the league. You factor in the intangibles that Sarich brings and it's edge Sarich. More importantly, when a defenseman has a cap hit of $2M, plays just over 10 minutes a game, and has another year left on his contract, that extra year on his contract is NOT a good thing.

Flames Draft Watcher · 12-21-2013, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

O'Brien was a healthy scratch. You can say O'Brien for Sarich was a push at best. Sarich brought leadership and more grit than O'Brien has ever brought so far, and better defending. Yep, he was older, but he brought those to the team more consistently than O'Brien. As a forward, you don't really have to keep your head up when O'Brien is on the ice. When does anyone remember a big check? He got into 1 fight thus far (and Sarich would fight too).

They are pretty similar and close to a wash IMO. Sarich's big hits were far and few between. Both depth defenders who play a similar style. Sarich was scratched more than a couple times as well during his tenure here. O'Brien is younger. Overall a push.

I didn't think we'd be able to dump Tanguay's contract. Having Jones is not the worst thing in the world unless we start to get close to the cap. He'll keep us above the cap floor. Having one 4 million dollar bad contract as your only really bad contract is fine for us at the moment.

Clearly Feaster didn't really "win" that trade. But IMO we didn't really lose that trade badly either as I think Tanguay was going to be a bad influence in the room going forward and was going to hurt Hartley's ability to instill a new team identity and work ethic.