How much longer do you think the Oilers will be this bad for?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Kaine

Who didn't say Backlund gets pushed around. I simply stated that his size has been far from a problem for him. He is getting the job done despite not being the strongest player on the ice. Cervenka has looked fine in the sense that his lack of physical play hasn't been the cause of his problems whatsoever, if you want to talk about him not being good enough in general, well that is another discussion all together. Nobody claimed Tanguay was big or strong, you were the first to bring it up as far as I can see. Big difference between being able to hold your own and being "big and strong". Stajan has never been a punishing player, he has filled his roll this year and done far better than many of us expected him to do despite receiving a number of questionable hits. Seems like he's doing fine "despite playing like a 5 foot 5 nancy" to me.

Must have misread your post as it looked to me like you were saying that those guys were doing fine physically and in terms of strength. I thought you were pointing them out as examples that the Flames are not a small, weak team up front.

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by moon

Must have misread your post as it looked to me like you were saying that those guys were doing fine physically and in terms of strength. I thought you were pointing them out as examples that the Flames are not a small, weak team up front.

Given what this team has currently, that's exactly what I was saying. Despite the size issues the top 6 has been playing very well, not being dominated physically as you seem to suggest they have been. Who suggested this was a perfect team and that size and a physical presence shouldn't be added when the opportunity presented itself? Given what this team has to work with at this moment they have not had a single issue when it comes to being a "small, weak team up front".

Then again I can't say I'm shocked. The day you post something, anything positive about the team moon, is the day I fall out of my chair from shock.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Kaine

Given what this team has currently, that's exactly what I was saying. Despite the size issues the top 6 has been playing very well, not being dominated physically as you seem to suggest they have been. Who suggested this was a perfect team and that size and a physical presence shouldn't be added when the opportunity presented itself? Given what this team has to work with at this moment they have not had a single issue when it comes to being a "small, weak team up front".

I think there can be a balance between not a small, weak team and being a perfect team. I have seen them physically dominated a number of times this season and it was a real problem for them in terms of getting hemmed in their own zone and keeping control of the puck.

This team has had issue with a weak top 9 all season long and it looks like that will likely be the case moving forward unless big changes are made to the make up of the team.

Then again I can't say I'm shocked. The day you post something, anything positive about the team moon, is the day I fall out of my chair from shock.

Try reading more and worrying about the off topic personal attacks and you will find yourself on the floor plenty of times.

[OzSome]

I totally agree with one poster that as long as Kevin Lowe is running this team, they will not move on. I sure hope Katz will not open his eyes and realize that Kevin Lowe is the problem. They have some awesome young talents in that team unfortunately no direction. Oooops wait I forgot Kevin Lowe knows a lot about running the team... only one guy in the NHL have more Stanley Cup than he is.

[Joker]

Originally Posted by Kaine

Who didn't say Backlund gets pushed around. I simply stated that his size has been far from a problem for him. He is getting the job done despite not being the strongest player on the ice. Cervenka has looked fine in the sense that his lack of physical play hasn't been the cause of his problems whatsoever, if you want to talk about him not being good enough in general, well that is another discussion all together. Nobody claimed Tanguay was big or strong, you were the first to bring it up as far as I can see. Big difference between being able to hold your own and being "big and strong". Stajan has never been a punishing player, he has filled his roll this year and done far better than many of us expected him to do despite receiving a number of questionable hits. Seems like he's doing fine "despite playing like a 5 foot 5 nancy" to me.

Backlund could probably have 5 more goals this year if he would bare-down on plays, but instead is thrown aside, thus negating his scoring chance. This type of play can also lead to turnover, and if you are a center, those turnovers are often in defensive situations. I love that he fought last game, even though it didnt turn out well for him, and even though he shouldnt be fighting, i hope that its a sign that he realizes he needs to play a bigger game.

I was going to go on about each player, but i think i can paraphrase. I said they have too many players PLAYING LIKE 5 foot 5 Nancys. The team wouldnt have needed to go out and get Mcgratten if the overall "team toughness" wasnt such a glaring issue. I dont understand, if you followed this team over the last couple seasons, how you could think they come to the rink and compete every night? The kids coming up and winning by out-working opponents shows just how sad the previous groups compete level was.

I'm not saying you dont need some skill to win, because you cant win without scoring. Im saying that the best way to succeed in this sport, is to have a team like the Kings.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Kaine

Really? I can't say I saw as many as 34 games, likely not even half of that however I have yet to see him play defense that would be considered acceptable at even the junior level. Heck I've seen pee wee players demonstrate better defensive IQ. Or is the AHL not the place players demonstrate an ability to play their positions these days? I'm so out of the loop.

You really are mistaken if you honestly think players have to play in the NHL to learn to play defense, he is missing the most basic fundamentals a defenseman should demonstrate at a far earlier level then the NHL. Then again the Oilers are worse than your average AHL team anyways so it's a good a place as any to learn I suppose. Touche.

Not necessarily saying that players have to play in the AHL to learn defence but in his case it wouldn't help him to go back to the AHL. He won AHL defenceman of the year playing only 34 games.

You're kidding yourself if you're saying he didn't play well defensively with the Barons. He played big minutes and more than held his own on the defensive side. In terms of scoring chances for/against he was an average of 1.3 per game greater than the next-highest regular defenceman on the team. When he left, he was among the league's leading plus/minus for defencemen.

This is clearly a player who would do much better playing in the NHL in terms of his overall development.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Just curious because I didn't watch him in the AHL, but did he succeed in the AHL because he was kind of insulated by Hall, Eberle, and RNH?

Not at all. He averaged close to 30 minutes a game. He controlled the game more often than not.

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by Joker

Backlund could probably have 5 more goals this year if he would bare-down on plays, but instead is thrown aside, thus negating his scoring chance. This type of play can also lead to turnover, and if you are a center, those turnovers are often in defensive situations. I love that he fought last game, even though it didnt turn out well for him, and even though he shouldnt be fighting, i hope that its a sign that he realizes he needs to play a bigger game.

I was going to go on about each player, but i think i can paraphrase. I said they have too many players PLAYING LIKE 5 foot 5 Nancys. The team wouldnt have needed to go out and get Mcgratten if the overall "team toughness" wasnt such a glaring issue. I dont understand, if you followed this team over the last couple seasons, how you could think they come to the rink and compete every night? The kids coming up and winning by out-working opponents shows just how sad the previous groups compete level was.

I'm not saying you dont need some skill to win, because you cant win without scoring. Im saying that the best way to succeed in this sport, is to have a team like the Kings.

I won't even bother responding to the "playing like nancy's" comments as we just obviously disagree and I don't ever see myself agreeing with the point you are trying to make. The bold comment is pretty silly tho. Sure he might have a few more goals if he had 20 pounds more muscle on him and was all the stronger for it, but that's not who he is nor will it ever be who he is. Shoulda, woulda, coulda and "ifs" are about the most pointless discussions you can have when it comes to hockey. Backlund will never be the player that plays with a strong physical edge, he plays his game and he has been more than effective this season, talking about what he might be like if he was a different type of player is pointless.

Given the type of player he is and his size he handles the physical aspects very well, sure improvement is always nice and will happen as he matures but he's never going to be the player that stands toe to toe with the largest Dmen in the league, nor is he likely to win a board battle with the likes of Getzlaf. To expect otherwise and criticize him for not playing that type of game is silly.

If Backlund was able to play the way you are suggesting he might be an 80 point player. I don't think anyone here expects that out of him. I've been more than thrilled at his aprox 50 point pace hes set so far this season.

Either way this has been offtopic long enough, no sense further derailing it.

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Not necessarily saying that players have to play in the AHL to learn defence but in his case it wouldn't help him to go back to the AHL. He won AHL defenceman of the year playing only 34 games.

You're kidding yourself if you're saying he didn't play well defensively with the Barons. He played big minutes and more than held his own on the defensive side. In terms of scoring chances for/against he was an average of 1.3 per game greater than the next-highest regular defenceman on the team. When he left, he was among the league's leading plus/minus for defencemen.

This is clearly a player who would do much better playing in the NHL in terms of his overall development.

Fair points about his early AHL numbers (although they don't tell the whole story) but clearly he has been a disaster in his own zone in the NHL thus far. Honestly I can't remember a time when I've seen someone so lost in their own zone so often. Heck not even Mike Green was that bad and he was one of the worst I can actually think of.

We might just have to agree to disagree because I honestly can't say with a strait face that he is in any way ready for the NHL level. He's still young so of course he can turn it around but who knows, maybe he will just be one of those players are excels in the lower leagues and can never find his game at the NHL level. I doubt this turns out to be the case but it would explain the situation. Then again it could just be due to the fact that the entire Oilers team is a trainwreck and no single player should be singled out.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by robaur

So when give 2 players with pretty much equivalent skill in Mackinnon and Nichuchkin...why not go with the bigger player....

MacKinnon is more skilled IMO. He also plays a more important position. He's got a better all around game.

No contest who I choose out of those two. MacKinnon 10 times out of 10.

[Steve Bozek]

How did discussions of Backlund and which players the Flames should draft escape from their respective threads? I thoight this one was about the Oilers.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by robaur

It means that it's pretty self-explanatory why the Oilers are the worst 5 on 5 team in the league and will never have any success in the playoffs with those players. You need size to have success at both of those.

So size is more important than skill.

Example: Boston Bruins beat Vancouver Canucks.......Canucks were more skilled.

Example: LA Kings playoff run last year...they were by far not the most skilled team in the playoffs....

Size and strength wins out at the end because...at the end of the day....this is still a game of guts, and physical strength/endurance.

LOL. It's so simple in your world I guess?

There are many reasons why the Oilers suck 5 on 5. Many reasons why the Nucks lost to the Bruins. Many reasons why the Kings won.

Size is only a small part of the equation. Goaltending and team defense are a big reason the Kings won.

If only it was as simple as you seem to think it is.

Skill is pretty clearly more important than size. The success of players like Datsyuk, Crosby, Kane, St. Louis, in the playoffs etc proves that. Toews, Malkin, Getzlaf, Perry, etc are big but they are also sublimely skilled. I'm the kind of person who believes you need some size/strength in your lineup to be successful. But you have gone way overboard on it and completely overrate it.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

LOL. It's so simple in your world I guess?

There are many reasons why the Oilers suck 5 on 5. Many reasons why the Nucks lost to the Bruins. Many reasons why the Kings won.

Size is only a small part of the equation. Goaltending and team defense are a big reason the Kings won.

If only it was as simple as you seem to think it is.

Skill is pretty clearly more important than size. The success of players like Datsyuk, Crosby, Kane, St. Louis, in the playoffs etc proves that. Toews, Malkin, Getzlaf, Perry, etc are big but they are also sublimely skilled. I'm the kind of person who believes you need some size/strength in your lineup to be successful. But you have gone way overboard on it and completely overrate it.

Laraque >>>Crosby

[CaptainCrunch]

Oilers
Incompetent
Leadership
Eradicates
Responsibility

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by OzSome

I totally agree with one poster that as long as Kevin Lowe is running this team, they will not move on. I sure hope Katz will not open his eyes and realize that Kevin Lowe is the problem. They have some awesome young talents in that team unfortunately no direction. Oooops wait I forgot Kevin Lowe knows a lot about running the team... only one guy in the NHL have more Stanley Cup than he is.

Oz I believe the problem is Katz not Lowe. If any other businessman owned the team Lowe would have been gassed the moment he took over but Katz is living his dream hanging with the Oilers players from their championship teams. Dysfunction always starts at the top.

[edmontonice]

Hall/Eberle/Nuge have done a pretty good job of outshooting/outchancing the opposition this year 5 on 5 considering they get the attention of the opposing coaches. it's the rest of the crew who have been slaughtered.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by edmontonice

Hall/Eberle/Nuge have done a pretty good job of outshooting/outchancing the opposition this year 5 on 5 considering they get the attention of the opposing coaches. it's the rest of the crew who have been slaughtered.

Overrated is overrated. The only something special about these guys are how overrated they are in the league. haha

[OzSome]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Oz I believe the problem is Katz not Lowe. If any other businessman owned the team Lowe would have been gassed the moment he took over but Katz is living his dream hanging with the Oilers players from their championship teams. Dysfunction always starts at the top.

I agree so I guess I can't argue with you on this one. Then they deserve each other.

[Tinordi]

The problem with the Oil from my take is that they're really bad at drafting key pieces in the later rounds. They have virtually nobody coming into the lineup providing depth. That's the big issue.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

I just don't get how bad you can be with so many first overall picks.