Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Possible but unlikely, the identification aspect of the system iirc which is the transponder display can't be shut off. So its going to show up on the radar screen as civillian.

On top of that these vehicles usually have a two to three man firing system.

You have the radar operator, the weapons operator and a battery commander. On top of that these vehicles are air defense platforms and are designed to work in a web with other air defense vehicles. In other words somewhere there was a senior commander in communication who made the final decision to fire.

Even a week end crew has to be trained on how the system works and how to read a radar, and how to use the optical system.

I have a serious problem with them thinking it was a AN-26 for example, the altitude alone pretty much screams civilian air liner and a civilian airliner does not behave like a military jet.

Could they have been fed bad info about a military plane acting like a civilian one?

Edit: as in, could a military plane pretend to be civilian?

[chemgear]

Obama live stream on now:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/live/presi...uation-ukraine

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Could they have been fed bad info about a military plane acting like a civilian one?

Edit: as in, could a military plane pretend to be civilian?

sure, its a possibility, in the opening stages of the Russia Afghan war, The Russians used military transports with civilian transponder signals flying in civilian aircraft lanes and landed them right at the airport and unloaded Spetznatz and airborne elite troops.

But this plane was flying far above what the usual cargo planes could fly, in a straight forward manner in a well known civilian flight lane.

While it might have been a mistake, its more like about 8 or 9 mistakes rolled into one, and the military mind in me screams that its unlikely.

I think that the separatists rules of engagement were defined as we don't care if its civilian or military, We're going to prove to everyone that we're serious about taking command of this airspace.

And what that screams to me is that they knew, and didn't care, they were setting a tone.

And that makes it murder to me.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

sure, its a possibility, in the opening stages of the Russia Afghan war, The Russians used military transports with civilian transponder signals flying in civilian aircraft lanes and landed them right at the airport and unloaded Spetznatz and airborne elite troops.

But this plane was flying far above what the usual cargo planes could fly, in a straight forward manner in a well known civilian flight lane.

While it might have been a mistake, its more like about 8 or 9 mistakes rolled into one, and the military mind in me screams that its unlikely.

I think that the separatists rules of engagement were defined as we don't care if its civilian or military, We're going to prove to everyone that we're serious about taking command of this airspace.

And what that screams to me is that they knew, and didn't care, they were setting a tone.

And that makes it murder to me.

Thanks, that's exactly the info I was looking for. I don't think the guys at the trigger knew the backlash this would cause. Interesting to note, the didn't once claim they shot down a military plane in the "intercepted" call or the Facebook post.

[chemgear]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0FN1JJ20140718

First came the loud explosion that made buildings rattle: then it started raining bodies.

One of the corpses fell through the rickety roof of Irina Tipunova's house in this sleepy village, just after Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 exploded high over eastern Ukraine, where pro-Russian separatists are fighting government forces.

"And then I heard a roar and she landed in the kitchen, the roof was broken," she said, showing the gaping hole made by the body when it came through the ceiling of the kitchen in an extension to the house.
The dead woman's naked body was still lying inside the house, next to a bed.

About 100 meters (330 feet) from Tipunova's home, dozens more dead bodies lay in the wheat fields where the airliner came down on Thursday, killing all 298 people on board.

"I opened the door and I saw people falling. One fell in my vegetable patch," she said.
Some of the corpses have been wrapped in almost transparent plastic sheets, the corners held down with small mounds of soil or stones. Pairs of uncovered legs poke out from under some of the sheets, and at least one had a red carnation on top.

Among the dead were many women and children, including a boy of about 10 still lying beside the cockpit, his small body covered by a plastic sheet.

[burn_this_city]

Sounds eerily similar to the Lockerbie bombing.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by chemgear

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0FN1JJ20140718

First came the loud explosion that made buildings rattle: then it started raining bodies.

One of the corpses fell through the rickety roof of Irina Tipunova's house in this sleepy village, just after Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 exploded high over eastern Ukraine, where pro-Russian separatists are fighting government forces.

"And then I heard a roar and she landed in the kitchen, the roof was broken," she said, showing the gaping hole made by the body when it came through the ceiling of the kitchen in an extension to the house.
The dead woman's naked body was still lying inside the house, next to a bed.

About 100 meters (330 feet) from Tipunova's home, dozens more dead bodies lay in the wheat fields where the airliner came down on Thursday, killing all 298 people on board.

"I opened the door and I saw people falling. One fell in my vegetable patch," she said.
Some of the corpses have been wrapped in almost transparent plastic sheets, the corners held down with small mounds of soil or stones. Pairs of uncovered legs poke out from under some of the sheets, and at least one had a red carnation on top.

Among the dead were many women and children, including a boy of about 10 still lying beside the cockpit, his small body covered by a plastic sheet.

holy ####, that is the thing of nightmares.

[Otto-matic]

National Journal‏@nationaljournal7 mins
BREAKING: ABC reports shots fired by rebels at wreckage site investigators http://bit.ly/Wn8DaI

[Burke Salad]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

National Journal‏@nationaljournal7 mins
BREAKING: ABC reports shots fired by rebels at wreckage site investigators http://bit.ly/Wn8DaI

Holy hell these nuts are just asking for a real fight!

[FlameOn]

Cold war redux! Putin reached an agreement with Cuba to reopen the cold war era Lourdes Signals Intelligence base to "keep tabs on a potential enemy". What the heck is Putin thinking? In this sensitive time I really don't think he could do any worse than he is now. Was a small fire before and it just seems like now he's running around pouring gasoline on everything.

Russia has agreed to reopen a spy base in Cuba that provided critical intelligence on the US during the Cold War, according to reports published this week. Details of the purported agreement have not been disclosed, and it's not yet clear whether the move is strategic or symbolic. But experts say the apparent rekindling of Cold War-era alliances underscores Moscow's efforts to extend its sphere of influence at a time when US-Russia relations continue to deteriorate.

On Wednesday, Russian business newspaper Kommersant reported that Russian President Vladimir Putin and his Cuban counterpart, Raúl Castro, have agreed to reopen the Lourdes surveillance post, located about 150 miles from Florida. Putin denied the report, telling Russian journalists that the country "can meet its defense needs without this component," though Reuters later corroborated Kommersant, citing a Russian security source.

The Lourdes base was closed in 2001, ostensibly as a cost-cutting measure. But Kommersant, citing unnamed Russian security sources, said the country's influx of oil and gas revenue has allowed it to restart operations. Chilled relations with the US reportedly spurred the decision as well, with the paper saying that officials see Lourdes as a way for Russia to keep tabs on a "potential enemy."

http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/18/59...y-base-in-cuba

[nik-]

Because Putin is more concerned with projecting strength than actually working to improve his ####ty country.

[jonesy]

Remember the atomic clock that researchers would use to indicate how close we were to a nuclear event? They use to move it to 10 minute to midnight, adjust it here and there to indicate tension?
It just feels like it is moving closer to midnight again.
Also, I heard something that is not getting a fraction of the attention I thought it would. A group of nations (Brazil, India, Russia, South Africa and China) announced the formation of a world bank with 100 billion in assets. If this is true and if they start trading in non US bucks, I feel like any US / Euro sanctions would be greatly nullified. So that could be giving Putin a power surge to stir the pot.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by nik-

Because Putin is more concerned with projecting strength than actually working to improve his ####ty country.

If Putin put in as much work into the social well-being of his own people and construction of his nation as he does with showing the size of his dick to the rest of the world, that country would be amazing.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think that the separatists rules of engagement were defined as we don't care if its civilian or military, We're going to prove to everyone that we're serious about taking command of this airspace.

And what that screams to me is that they knew, and didn't care, they were setting a tone.

And that makes it murder to me.

Russia is stupid, but I don't think they are that stupid. I think they would keep their dogs on at least that much of a leash.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by nik-

Because Putin is more concerned with projecting strength than actually working to improve his ####ty country.

And sadly, probably more popular than ever in Russia. Russians don't seem to care how crappy of an existence their leaders force them into, as long as they're strong like bear.

A 5'6" bear.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Also, I heard something that is not getting a fraction of the attention I thought it would. A group of nations (Brazil, India, Russia, South Africa and China) announced the formation of a world bank with 100 billion in assets. If this is true and if they start trading in non US bucks, I feel like any US / Euro sanctions would be greatly nullified. So that could be giving Putin a power surge to stir the pot.

And who is the market for their goods? Each other? If they want to band together and isolate themselves from the most prosperous markets in the world (half of them being pretty much cheap labour countries) then enjoy.

Originally Posted by Table 5

And sadly, probably more popular than ever in Russia. Russians don't seem to care how crappy of an existence their leaders force them into, as long as they're strong like bear.

yeah, they get the leaders they deserve. There must be something in the psyche.

[burn_this_city]

Not to be overly stereotypical, but I find a large number of Russian people in Canada have a hilariously inflated sense of national pride. Russia the best, Canada terrible type mentality that always begs the question, if its so great, why are you here?

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Possible but unlikely, the identification aspect of the system iirc which is the transponder display can't be shut off. So its going to show up on the radar screen as civillian.

On top of that these vehicles usually have a two to three man firing system.

You have the radar operator, the weapons operator and a battery commander. On top of that these vehicles are air defense platforms and are designed to work in a web with other air defense vehicles. In other words somewhere there was a senior commander in communication who made the final decision to fire.

Even a week end crew has to be trained on how the system works and how to read a radar, and how to use the optical system.

I have a serious problem with them thinking it was a AN-26 for example, the altitude alone pretty much screams civilian air liner and a civilian airliner does not behave like a military jet.

The Transponder CAN be turned off, however, they lose ID on Russian A/C also. So its very unlikely they would turn it off, taking a chance at mistakingly firing at a Russian military or Comm-air.

The BUK is a 4 man team. Tech (reloading, systems manager) Operator (Radar Tracking and Ident), The weapons controller (guy selecting the weapon). Platform Commander, Guy pulling the trigger.

It takes months and months to train on the capabilities (caps and lims) of the sensors and how to simply turn them on properly. Then months on how to effectively use them in a tactical situation. In the Canadian military, on a similar system, the guy pulling the trigger has 8+ years of experience on the platform or similar weapons platform. Regardless of rebels or not, these people are trained.

To hit something at 30k ft+ takes skill. Even with such an advanced weapon system. Something that looks like a dot in the sky, at the edge of the range limit for the radar, to maintain tracking for a fire solution.

Without IFF, its impossible to tell Comm-air from military and type of A/C with sensors or naked eye.

Someone knew. Someone gave the order. Someone pulled the trigger. Someone arbitrarily decided to end the lives of 300 hundred innocent people (innocent from the conflict).

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by nik-

And who is the market for their goods? Each other? If they want to band together and isolate themselves from the most prosperous markets in the world (half of them being pretty much cheap labour countries) then enjoy.

Yes, each other. Take a look, that is the majority of the world's population. The main thing they would need to trade would be oil.
If they will only buy crude or gas in non US bucks, I think that is VERY significant. I suspect even a small fraction of the world going away from the US dollar for crude will have very serious effects on the strength of the US dollar/world power.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by nik-

And who is the market for their goods? Each other? If they want to band together and isolate themselves from the most prosperous markets in the world (half of them being pretty much cheap labour countries) then enjoy.

China, India, Brazil & Russia are all in the 10 largest economies in the world, not to mention the growth rates of China, India & Brazil.
It's only South Africa who is a way off the list. They're a lot more than just cheap labour countries.