[PGT] Flames 1 @ Golden Knights 6

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I'm sorry you don't watch games and live off your stats. .

Log off.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Log off.

Can’t help himself I guess.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

No it's not.

Landeskog and MacKinnon were both on the team for these three seasons:

14/15: 39-31-0-12 --> missed playoffs
15/16: 39-39-0-4 --> missed playoffs
16/17: 22-56-0-4 --> missed playoffs (Makar)

Landeskog was also around for:

11/12: 41-35-0-6 --> missed playoffs
12/13: 16-25-0-7 --> missed playoffs (MacKinnon)

If losing begets losing, then how was Landeskog able to Captain a Championship? How did MacKinnon overcome three straight years of missed playoffs, including an absolutely pathetic season?

Losing does not bread more losing. Winning, in almost every situation, actually requires losing - and then a significant amount of excellent management.

In all but one of those “losing seasons” they weren’t a losing team as in “we expect to lose every game”. They won as many as they lost, if not more, and just missed the POs (barely). They were the dreaded mushy middle.

So they were trying to win, which is the point about getting used to losing. Creating a culture of losing is hard to get past.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Whatever this lol-worthy nonsense was:



But that aside, I don’t think the stats do a good job of telling the whole story either, not any better or worse than actual production (especially not if you’re going to go through the effort of “running the numbers” in a few scenarios but don’t even set parameters like TOI or F vs D).

For the last 41 games out of players who played more than 9 games he was:
- 1st in GF% despite being 10th in xGF%
- 5th in GF/60
- 3rd in GA/60

There is a difference between what is expected to happen and what did happen. You might look at a player with a discrepancy one way or another and see something unsustainable, but that does not mean the production does or doesn’t exist any more than it would have otherwise.

If a player scores a lucky hat trick at the end of the day it’s a hat trick all the same as a skill one.

I set parameters just fine thanks. I did make a solid case that he had a great 8 games but was bad prior to it. Those 8 games padded his points, GF, and GA stats. He had a bad season before those 8 games.

Looking at your numbers, his high GF% was powered by his low GA/60. And you know who had an even better GF% during that time? Weegar and Pachal (with Miro not far behind). If those defensemen were on the ice for much of the same time Sharky was on the ice, it would make sense that Sharky would end up with a great GF%, wouldn't it? I'm not saying Sharky didn't contribute toward it, I'm just saying he had a lot of help from his defensemen.

And an important question must be asked... if Pachal had the best GF% on the team during the same time period you're spotlighting for Sharky, then are we ready to say Pachal is some great defenseman that we can expect great things from? Or do we say he had a great stretch of hockey, but it's not an indicator of the level of player he actually is? Same kind of question can be asked for guys like Mangiapane, Cheechoo, etc, who rode and unsustainably high shooting % for a while, then their production tumbled once the hot streak was over. I think this is also the case for Sharky. While I hope he proves me wrong, there is reason to believe he won't. Any time GF and GA stats look unusually amazing for a player, while their expected stats are waaaaaay lower, there's reason to believe the player is riding a stretch of good bounces and teammates setting them up for relatively easy goals. But the stretch will end at some point and the production will collapse.

Which brings us to this year. Is Sharky a great player being held back by his struggling teammates? Or has he simply fallen off the high shooting % gravy train? I think it's the latter.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Don't know if this is directed at me.. but ya some people are funny. There is nothing wrong with pointing out how awful Frost has been but suggesting Bieska only criticized Sharengovic due to some misplaced Belarusian bigotry is a little out there.

Wasn’t directed your way at all.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I set parameters just fine thanks. I did make a solid case that he had a great 8 games but was bad prior to it. Those 8 games padded his points, GF, and GA stats. He had a bad season before those 8 games.

…

Which brings us to this year. Is Sharky a great player being held back by his struggling teammates? Or has he simply fallen off the high shooting % gravy train? I think it's the latter.

You didn’t, but if you’re going to get defensive about someone pointing out the issue with comparing xGF/60 of a guy who played 41 games to a guy who played 1 then we can just agree to disagree because that seems silly to me.

For the rest, why are those the two options? Who has argued the former, and what does the latter even have to do with what we’re talking about?

Someone said Sharangovich was on a run of 90 bad games, and the only rejection to that was that it wasn’t true, which even your counter argument (which itself was a response to a comment that was actually about Farabee) agrees with.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

comparing xGF/60 of a guy who played 41 games to a guy who played 1

Not what I did at all. I made sure to filter out any player who had too few games/minutes to be a fair comparable.

For the rest, why are those the two options? Who has argued the former, and what does the latter even have to do with what we’re talking about?

Someone said Sharangovich was on a run of 90 bad games, and the only rejection to that was that it wasn’t true, which even your counter argument (which itself was a response to a comment that was actually about Farabee) agrees with.

Well you made a comment that Sharangovich is "the third most productive member of this team" and made it seem like he wasn't bad last year, two ideas I pushed back against.

And yes I do think he was riding a temporary, unsustainably high shooting percentage, which entirely explains his production last year. The numbers bear that out.

[heep223]

Sharangovich has been bad. The whole team has been bad. Bieksa called out sharangovich for being bad and gave a glaring example of a lack of compete. These things are simultaneously true, I don’t think it’s more complicated than that

[UKflames]

Well that was a tough watch. Vegas has 2-3 really high skilled guys that are several notches above our best players, and they did all of the damage goals wise.

Picking on Sharkey is low hanging fruit, I think they should be calling out Kadri, as we seem to be back to the selfish, hold onto the puck, try to go through 3-4 players on your own, before losing the puck Kadri agzin. He is the last person Coranato should be playing with, who needs someone to give him the puck in a position to shoot, Kadri doesn't do that.

Yes the whole team looks uninspired at the moment, but a bad season is what we need to draft more skill.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Well you made a comment that Sharangovich is "the third most productive member of this team" and made it seem like he wasn't bad last year, two ideas I pushed back against.

No, I made that comment about “Player X” which in that case was Farabee, and made it seem like Sharangovich had a strong back half last year as a rejection that he’s 90 games into playing terrible, which he did.

Doesn’t mean it was sustainable. Doesn’t mean he isn’t playing terribly this year, which I also said.