Simplified Neal/Lucic trade Poll

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

As if to prove my point.

Your opinion last month was that my primary purpose here to bad mouth James Neal. Now I have a new primary purpose. See your opinion on that changed in a month too...

Well of course you have to have a new primary purpose. Neal isn't here any more.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Or does his hit total plummet because hit totals have more to do with who's counting them and being on a terrible team that never has the puck?

Fact.

Strong puck possession = minimal hits.

Chasing the puck = lots of hits.

[jlh2640]

I have come around. I hated it at first. Now I realize it was crap for crap and Lucic is cheaper with a potential pick. NMC Scares me a bit. He also can play bottom 9 mins better than Neal and he adds some muscle

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well of course you have to have a new primary purpose. Neal isn't here any more.

Also what I’m seeing continually overlooked by the people who hate (or like if a rival fan) the trade is that Lucic is coming at a 12.5% discount too; people like CanadaMatt who are trying to do the ‘I told you so/you hated him a month ago now you don’t?!’ Schtick with out analyzing or considering all the current information at hand (underlying advance stats, trade conditions, better roster to play with) are just trying to plant themselves into a position where if Lucic does tank here they can insufferably let the whole board know how right they were.

Can’t we just remain cautiously optimistic for once? Let results actually dictate our opinions? We let Neal tank a year away on the best Flames team statistically since 89 but we can’t let a guy who willingly left our biggest rivals’ club to come play here? Wouldn’t it be amazing if he was serviceable which I think he will be when all is said and done? I mean go ahead and stand in the hate/dislike column if you want but don’t tell me as a Flames fan you wouldn’t be stoked if this works out for Calgary.

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

Also what I’m seeing continually overlooked by the people who hate (or like if a rival fan) the trade is that Lucic is coming at a 12.5% discount too; people like CanadaMatt who are trying to do the ‘I told you so/you hated him a month ago now you don’t?!’ Schtick with out analyzing or considering all the current information at hand (underlying advance stats, trade conditions, better roster to play with) are just trying to plant themselves into a position where if Lucic does tank here they can insufferably let the whole board know how right they were.

Can’t we just remain cautiously optimistic for once? Let results actually dictate our opinions? We let Neal tank a year away on the best Flames team statistically since 89 but we can’t let a guy who willingly left our biggest rivals’ club to come play here? Wouldn’t it be amazing if he was serviceable which I think he will be when all is said and done? I mean go ahead and stand in the hate/dislike column if you want but don’t tell me as a Flames fan you wouldn’t be stoked if this works out for Calgary.

It’s ironic that you make a post about how people are overlooking things or are not analyzing things...and then (in the very same post, mind) you claim I’m setting this up to say “I told you so”.

If you, yourself, hadn’t overlooked, or had performed any analysis whatsoever, then you’d know that I am (and have been from the very start) for this trade.

So, with that being said, what on earth are you talking about?

[TheRealPepman]

Off topic but does anyone remember if Brouwer demanded an "A" on his Flames sweater?

That said, the only good thing Neal did with this team is to not immediately accept an "A" position with Monahan last season. I liked that. At least he realized he had to earn his right to be an integral part of the team. Too bad it never worked.

[Dajazz]

It’s still a #### trade no matter how you slice it.

The Neal signing was applauded 12 months ago. He bombed in Calgary, one anomaly in his whole career so far. Perhaps he would never be a good fit, perhaps he’d turn it around and score 30 while being a pest. Or he’d just score 20 goals on the third line and some PP.

Sure, so maybe Lucic is a better “fit” if we need physicality and “grit” (yea Brad, how are those gritty leadership signing going lately). But for >5 million dollars no thanks.

You re-sign Hathaway (or similar player) and keep a goon available and hope that Neal finds 80% of his game. Maybe he doesn’t, fine, THEN you trade or buy him out. Not after one year. Hamonic bombed the first year, Hamilton had difficulty to adjust - you give Neal one more chance.

There is no way Milan Lucic, entering his fourth year of decline with a degenerative back disease to boot, was a fair return. I refuse to believe it, there was something else about Neal that we don’t know about - trade request, locker room trouble, coach dog house.

The trade is considered a lop sided win for Edmonton league wide, while a few Flames’ fans are doing it’s best Jay “Smartest Man in the Room” Feaster impression saying Lucic > Neal and that buy out clause ain’t any problems...

C’mon - Lucic’s contract was the worst contract in the league. Maybe Bobrovsky beat it now, still, top 3 then....

TLDR; Traded Neal too cheap and too early, something fishy going on.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

There is no way Milan Lucic, entering his fourth year of decline with a degenerative back disease to boot, was a fair return. I refuse to believe it, there was something else about Neal that we don’t know about - trade request, locker room trouble, coach dog house.

The trade is considered a lop sided win for Edmonton league wide, while a few Flames’ fans are doing it’s best Jay “Smartest Man in the Room” Feaster impression saying Lucic > Neal and that buy out clause ain’t any problems...

C’mon - Lucic’s contract was the worst contract in the league. Maybe Bobrovsky beat it now, still, top 3 then....

TLDR; Traded Neal too cheap and too early, something fishy going on.

I’d say it’s a given he was in the doghouse and many of those going to lengths to defend the trade are admittedly assuming there were unresolvable problems on the team with Neal on it beyond his play.

Water under the bridge now I guess. I just hope Flames figure out what went wrong with Neal and what could be improved in their decision making process. You can be sure Treliving was asked this by ownership.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

It’s ironic that you make a post about how people are overlooking things or are not analyzing things...and then (in the very same post, mind) you claim I’m setting this up to say “I told you so”.

If you, yourself, hadn’t overlooked, or had performed any analysis whatsoever, then you’d know that I am (and have been from the very start) for this trade.

So, with that being said, what on earth are you talking about?

Well you have a really funny way of showing your for the trade from reading your posts about it CanadaMatt. Many posts you make about it seem to be trying to outline how posters who are saying Lucic numbers aren’t as bad as they seem didn’t hold that opinion a month before... it just doesn’t seem like you have a positive slant on this trade which I can understand to a degree as I wasn’t a Lucic fan prior to the trade either but I hate Neal and after crunching all the fancy numbers and conditions of the trade I am optimistic Lucic can fulfill a role here. To your point though I haven’t read all your posts so it’s true I wrote that without knowing your full perspective on the trade and didn’t know you were actually for it; sorry about that CM.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

I have come around. I hated it at first. Now I realize it was crap for crap and Lucic is cheaper with a potential pick. NMC Scares me a bit. He also can play bottom 9 mins better than Neal and he adds some muscle

I'm almost getting there, still say undecided though but it could end up being a decent trade that works out.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

It’s still a #### trade no matter how you slice it.

The Neal signing was applauded 12 months ago. He bombed in Calgary, one anomaly in his whole career so far. Perhaps he would never be a good fit, perhaps he’d turn it around and score 30 while being a pest. Or he’d just score 20 goals on the third line and some PP.

Sure, so maybe Lucic is a better “fit” if we need physicality and “grit” (yea Brad, how are those gritty leadership signing going lately). But for >5 million dollars no thanks.

You re-sign Hathaway (or similar player) and keep a goon available and hope that Neal finds 80% of his game. Maybe he doesn’t, fine, THEN you trade or buy him out. Not after one year. Hamonic bombed the first year, Hamilton had difficulty to adjust - you give Neal one more chance.

There is no way Milan Lucic, entering his fourth year of decline with a degenerative back disease to boot, was a fair return. I refuse to believe it, there was something else about Neal that we don’t know about - trade request, locker room trouble, coach dog house.

The trade is considered a lop sided win for Edmonton league wide, while a few Flames’ fans are doing it’s best Jay “Smartest Man in the Room” Feaster impression saying Lucic > Neal and that buy out clause ain’t any problems...

C’mon - Lucic’s contract was the worst contract in the league. Maybe Bobrovsky beat it now, still, top 3 then....

TLDR; Traded Neal too cheap and too early, something fishy going on.

If you sign a similar player it's $3M a season ball park, because Hathaway at $1.5M isn't the same deterrent.

So Lucic at $5.25M is overpaid as a bottom six forward, agree 100%. But if he's an above average deterrent and doesn't get filled in defensively he's only overpaid by $2.25M

[Split98]

^ That's really the crux of why there's any reason for optimism in this move.

If Lucic is on the ice, I'm not sending Hathaway to go take care of it and the list of guys that could handle Lucic don't come much cheaper than $3M. Whether Lucic's foot-speed prevents him from being that guy here remains to be seen. There's no question that the Flames were one of the weakest teams out there, and this garbage-for-garbage trade at least addresses that somewhat.

But you have to be applying the same amount of healthy optimism to hope that Neal was going to produce in the top-6 this year. Considering what he brings to the team, he's either on the scoresheet or he's in the press box. That management sees more potential in Lucic contributing to this team than Neal should say a lot about what optimism they had.

When you remember Smith was a big reason Neal signed here it's not hard to believe the rumours when he ends up traded to Smith's team either. Not getting his 1st line minutes and sitting for Game 5 wouldn't have sat too well the "Real Deal" - and I didn't see a thing all year that showed that the was an 'earn it back' kind of guy. That the Neal we saw was also while he was playing with his buddy and good vibes on a few SCF appearances... I'd hate to see what disinterested Neal looks like if this full off-season of rest wasn't the solution. He'll start the season with McDavid, but if things go South it'll be interesting to watch how he responds.


Lucic as a Flame wasn't something I hoped we'd be entering 2019 with
Lucic on our roster for $5M+ with the buyout and expansion issues sucks
Lucic NOT on the Oilers sucks
Neal producing with McDavid is going to suck

Edmonton will not make the playoffs on the back of James Neal
Calgary will not make the playoffs on the back of Milan Lucic

Neal is useless in the playoffs
Lucic could be a nightmare in the playoffs


There's a lot of good that CAN come out of this, despite the turd of a trade we're putting up with. I don't think fans are putting lipstick on a pig more than they're trying to find reasons to make due with the pig someone dropped off on their doorstep.

[Strange Brew]

I personally believe a deterrent at $3 million is not very good value. Yeah Reaves makes close to that but I don’t look at that as a good deal. Could just as easily compare to Engelland. Are the Bruins, Blues, Lightning paying $3 million for that dimension? I can’t think of who it would be.

Maybe Dillon for the Sharks?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Lucic's contract was considered one of the worst in the league before he got traded to Calgary. Not only by everyone on this site but around the league.

I don't know what kind of spin people are trying to pull around here but there should be some kind of intellectual honesty about who this guy is and why he was thought to be pretty much unmovable just a few days ago.

And yes Neal sucked hard last year but Lucic is no better.

And it still is. And so was Neal's. And it still is.

Lucic's contract sucks because its for more money, came with an NTC and was largely structured in Bonuses for a vastly underperforming player.

His contract is bad. Its bad and it should feel bad for being so bad. Its fitting it was signed by the Oilers.

Neal's contract is bad because Neal is bad. If he'd performed even just a little then we're likely not having this conversation, but much like subversives and political dissidents the completely useless get sent to the Gulags, I mean Siberia, Hell, Edmonton. Close enough.

That being said, I'm not going to sugarcoat the crappiness of the contracts. They suck either which way you slice it, but right now these two contracts are there and they are a giant #### sandwich and everybody has to take a bite.

Who wins the trade between Calgary and Edmonton? Probably Lucic.

The Flames and Oilers continue to get screwed hard on the contracts and Neal has to go and play for one of the worst teams in the history of organized competition while Lucic gets to live the Oiler-Dream.

He gets paid a stupid amount of money (Thanks Oilers) to play at a pathetically low level (Thanks Oilers) in a scenario that only the Oilers could create (Thanks Oilers) and the real kicker? Now he doesnt have to do it for the Oilers.

McDavid is licking his chops at Lucic living the Oiler dream. To be able to take his contract and get his money just.....somewhere else. Anywhere else.

In Soccer we call this the 'Manchester Dream.' Where a team you're not good enough to play for pays you money you could never earn anywhere else and you cant leave because nobody else is going to pay you that.

At least Manchester has the good sense to make them cool their heels in the slums of the City, the Oilers one-upped them and actually send the players away believing it to be some sort of punishment instead of the glorious reward that it is.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I personally believe a deterrent at $3 million is not very good value. Yeah Reaves makes close to that but I don’t look at that as a good deal. Could just as easily compare to Engelland. Are the Bruins, Blues, Lightning paying $3 million for that dimension? I can’t think of who it would be.

Maybe Dillon for the Sharks?

So this doesn't get twisted in this friendly thread, I don't think anyone is saying that $3M for a deterrent is good value and it's great the Flames have it for $5M+

There's not much else in the Reaves camp that can contribute these days, and we know that Reaves had multiple options when he signed for $2,775,000. Dillon seems like a fine example, but that's a stretch to compare to Lucic IMO. So round-about $3M is a rough 'as we chat' number if you like

I would have loved for the team to build team toughness rather than add a single deterrent - but here we are. One of the biggest elements to the Bruins & Blues toughness is that you see it all game with different combinations. They play hard, and one line with Lucic/Reaves isn't going to win that battle for you. If Calgary could have gotten Wilson for Neal, I'd be upset.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Split98

So this doesn't get twisted in this friendly thread, I don't think anyone is saying that $3M for a deterrent is good value and it's great the Flames have it for $5M+

There's not much else in the Reaves camp that can contribute these days, and we know that Reaves had multiple options when he signed for $2,775,000. Dillon seems like a fine example, but that's a stretch to compare to Lucic IMO. So round-about $3M is a rough 'as we chat' number if you like

I would have loved for the team to build team toughness rather than add a single deterrent - but here we are. One of the biggest elements to the Bruins & Blues toughness is that you see it all game with different combinations. They play hard, and one line with Lucic/Reaves isn't going to win that battle for you. If Calgary could have gotten Wilson for Neal, I'd be upset.

I hear you, just don’t get the relevance of the $3 million number as some kind of barometer. It’s just what one other guy makes.

Fact is, Flames were an excellent regular season team last with Neal doing nothing and eating up cap space. With Tkachuk coming due, it’s just a little harder now.

[Split98]

Yeah, just a barometer to understand why Treliving ever answered the phone in the first place. On this roster, comparing Lucic's role to Neal's saves you $1-2M if you assume that Neal could easily be replaced by someone at league minimum.

It also comes into play when the 'buy out Neal' option is taken into account, as the value in Lucic does have to be considered. Especially if he turns out to be a factor on this team.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Locke

Lucic's contract sucks because its for more money, came with an NTC and was largely structured in Bonuses for a vastly underperforming player.

...

He gets paid a stupid amount of money (Thanks Oilers) to play at a pathetically low level (Thanks Oilers) in a scenario that only the Oilers could create (Thanks Oilers) and the real kicker? Now he doesnt have to do it for the Oilers.

Re: Bolded

The cap hit is lower (5.25M for Calgary vs 6.5M for Edmonton) and the total money owed by Calgary is less as well (Flames owe Lucic $13M, Oilers owe Neal $23M).

[Demaeon]

Originally Posted by AC

Hmm?

He was saying that Hamilton had dropped off a cliff during his last year with the Flames, so his production in Carolina wasn't a big change.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Re: Bolded

The cap hit is lower (5.25M for Calgary vs 6.5M for Edmonton) and the total money owed by Calgary is less as well (Flames owe Lucic $13M, Oilers owe Neal $23M).

Yes, you're right, I know, I was speaking about the contracts initially.

The original post was lamenting people who berated the Lucic contract initially and for years thereafter suddenly changing their tune, I was comparing the contracts in their overall forms, side by side, not their remainder or current forms.