[GDT] Buffalo Sabres at Calgary Flames 7:00pm TV: SNW, MSGB - RADIO SN960

[hwy19man]

I mentioned this in the OOT for the Canucks game, but, too bad this Flames game is not part of a doubleheader on Prime.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

That falls under the umbrella of people having different ideas of how to re-build, not that they are saying they should not re-build.

The Sabres post isn't a great one. I'll give you that.

But I think you are mis-characterizing the rest. You think it's impossible to re-build without a top pick. Others feel different. There should be room for both views.

If anyone looks at the past 20 years of NHL hockey and thinks we can do a proper rebuild and win a Stanley Cup without first making a top pick or two... I wouldn't even know what to say, honestly. Sure there's room for such takes, but they don't seem grounded in reality. Hoping to become the 2011 Bruins isn't something we should be pinning our hopes on.

Originally Posted by Super-Rye

Lmao you need to up your reading comprehension. At no point did I say this team doesn't need to rebuild.

You pushed back on the idea that getting a top pick is an essential part of a successful rebuild. I took that as you not being serious about a rebuild. It seems lost on you that the past 35 years of Flames hockey are devoid of top 3 picks and also devoid of Stanley Cups.

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

There are lots of ways to get those top picks too. The Habs traded away a 4 top picks to help their rebuild, the Ducks went and spent 20% of their cap space on the UFA market to get their top picks.

Where did the Habs get Slafkovsky and Demidov?

Almost nobody has declared they are tanking and traded away every single player but outside of that option there are a lot of models to follow to get there.

And I get accused of making a strawman... lol

Lots of models? Name some cup champions from the past 20 years that didn't have top 3 picks on their roster?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

If anyone looks at the past 20 years of NHL hockey and thinks we can do a proper rebuild and win a Stanley Cup without first making a top pick or two... I wouldn't even know what to say, honestly. Sure there's room for such takes, but they don't seem grounded in reality. Hoping to become the 2011 Bruins isn't something we should be pinning our hopes on.



You pushed back on the idea that getting a top pick is an essential part of a successful rebuild. I took that as you not being serious about a rebuild. It seems lost on you that the past 35 years of Flames hockey are devoid of top 3 picks and also devoid of Stanley Cups.



Where did the Habs get Slafkovsky and Demidov?



And I get accused of making a strawman... lol

Lots of models? Name some cup champions from the past 20 years that didn't have top 3 picks on their roster?

Calgary's in luck then. It has a top 3 pick on the roster.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Calgary's in luck then. It has a top 3 pick on the roster.

Good job being deliberately obtuse.

[Enoch Root]

Says the poster who is arguing with his own imagination

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Says the poster who is arguing with his own imagination

Whatever dude. Enjoy another 9th place finish in the west while convincing yourself you're building the 2011 Bruins.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Good job being deliberately obtuse.

Good job missing sarcasm. Did you mean a top 3 that they drafted? Then see Vegas.

And while both TB and Florida had a couple, they were from two rebuilds before.

[GioforPM]

You know who also has top 3 draft picks in the roster? Almost every other team.

[Mathgod]

Vegas is a special case because they were created through a new draft system where GMs around the league didn't fully know what they were doing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Vegas is a special case because they were created through a new draft system where GMs around the league didn't fully know what they were doing.

They got a bunch of mediocre players who their coach managed to get a great year from. But most of those guys were gone when they got their cup.

[Flamesfan05]

Bye McKenna

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They got a bunch of mediocre players who their coach managed to get a great year from. But most of those guys were gone when they got their cup.

Some of those players were mediocre, but some were very good players who GMs stupidly didn't protect.

They were able to leverage that great first season into good trades and keep themselves a top team on a consistent basis. LTIR abuse, etc. Plus their weather and low taxes makes them a top UFA destination. Not really comparable to the Flames' situation.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Some of those players were mediocre, but some were very good players who GMs stupidly didn't protect.

They were able to leverage that great first season into good trades and keep themselves a top team on a consistent basis. LTIR abuse, etc. Plus their weather and low taxes makes them a top UFA destination. Not really comparable to the Flames' situation.

Always an excuse for exceptions to your rule. There were six players from the draft you claimed built the cup winning team. : William Carrier, William Karlsson, Jonathan Marchessault, Brayden McNabb, Reilly Smith and Shea Theodore. Of those maybe one is more than a mid level player.

Yes, they definitely leveraged trades. And yes they are a desired location. Which means for any enjoys to work the Flames have to get there before their best players can leverage themselves out - they don't have the luxury of TB or Florida to wait 10 years from when they tanked.

[Super-Rye]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

You pushed back on the idea that getting a top pick is an essential part of a successful rebuild. I took that as you not being serious about a rebuild. It seems lost on you that the past 35 years of Flames hockey are devoid of top 3 picks and also devoid of Stanley Cups.

Uh huh.

I'm very much of the mindset that you shouldn't worry about things you can't control. I don't control where this team finishes, or where they pick. Hell, this team barely controls that. They could throw this whole season away and still pick 5th or some ####. A wise man once said "it is possible to do everything right and still lose. That is life."

The things this team CAN control (hitting on the picks they do get, developing said players, making smart trades and free agent signings) is what will determine if this team is a contender or not. I then gave an example of a team that did exactly that.

I would love for this team to get a top 3 pick. It would likely solve a big hole in their lineup. If it happens that's great. If it doesn't then that's fine too. I should BE so fortunate to have so little going on in my life that where the Calgary Flames pick in next year's draft would even register on my list of things to ####ing worry about.

If you want and a few others want to keep embarrassing yourselves after every Flames win then go for it.

[1qqaaz]

Interesting how much older the Flames' roster is (27.4) than the Sabers (26.1).
Maybe the roster is too old for proper development. And Coronato is the only young player that contributes.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Not those exact words directly. But it's been the general sentiment of people who push back against the idea of a rebuild, and it goes back a very long time.

I've been calling for a rebuild since 07. The way the team lost to the Ducks in 06 and Wings in 07, gave me the sense that this team didn't have the horses to win playoff series vs the better teams in the league. That team relied too much on Kipper and Iggy, and didn't have the right kind of supporting cast to win in the new post-lockout era.

Maybe you can understand my frustration when I see that this team still hasn't picked top 3 in its entire history?

Over the past 2 decades, my calls for a rebuild have been met with responses like rebuilds are for losers, rebuilds are a lotto ticket, picking high doesn't work because look at Edmonton and Buffalo, etc.

So no, no one has directly told me that rebuilds never work. But there sure as heck are people who want us to think exactly that.

Fast forward to 2025, I see a 2-9 start and think ok, finally we're going to get an elite player in the draft. But the team's recent heater has put that into serious doubt. Still too far back to make the playoffs but drifting away from top pick territory. It's a source of some frustration. Another 9th place finish in the west is not what I'm hoping for here.

What’s crazy is that this isn’t just made up, but that it was only a month ago when you were saying you weren’t on team tank and that we should wait until the end of December to see what this team is before tanking or listening to offers on vets lol.

You’ve also said many of the same things you’re now suggesting is equivalent to “pushing back against a rebuild” for someone who has apparently been after one for 20 years.

Why make stuff like this up?

EDIT: even the “when it was 2-9 I saw!”, you had posts mocking team tank for feeling vindicated after a 1-7-1 record and accused them of suffering from “confirmation bias” and that they’d be way better going forward lol. Wild.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Super-Rye

A wise man once said "it is possible to do everything right and still lose. That is life."

Wonderful! Have a look at this I posted all the way back in.... 5 days ago. https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showth...92#post9584692

Originally Posted by Super-Rye

Uh huh.

I'm very much of the mindset that you shouldn't worry about things you can't control. I don't control where this team finishes, or where they pick. Hell, this team barely controls that. They could throw this whole season away and still pick 5th or some ####.

The things this team CAN control (hitting on the picks they do get, developing said players, making smart trades and free agent signings) is what will determine if this team is a contender or not. I then gave an example of a team that did exactly that.

I would love for this team to get a top 3 pick. It would likely solve a big hole in their lineup. If it happens that's great. If it doesn't then that's fine too. I should BE so fortunate to have so little going on in my life that where the Calgary Flames pick in next year's draft would even register on my list of things to ####ing worry about.

If you want and a few others want to keep embarrassing yourselves after every Flames win then go for it.

I'd say you have the control thing backwards. A team has more control over how low they finish in the standings (though in the Flames' case it's quickly slipping away with the recent string of wins) than they have hitting on picks.

Hitting on picks after the top 3-5 in the draft (depending on the draft) is much harder, because even the best scouting staffs have limited information to forecast what each player will become. Ultimately, no one can predict the future.

But there's one thing we do know. The best of the best players, more often than not, are found at the top of the draft. A last place finish guarantees at least a 3OA pick. Everyone in the bottom 10 has a shot at the first pick, though the lower you are, the better your odds are. Various things can be not guaranteed, though have different likelihoods of coming true. Odds aren't everything, but they do matter, and it's important to not lose sight of that.

If building a cup contender without first drafting top 3 picks was a viable strategy, everyone would be doing it. But it almost never happens. Building cup contenders with elite talent drafted at the top of a draft is way more common.

At 2-9, the Flames had a great chance to make this a year where they acquire a top pick. But now it's maybe too late. Where does this leave the Flames, now that they're climbing out of the basement and several teams around them are in free fall? Not in a great position. No realistic path to the playoffs, and no realistic path to a top pick. The rebuild will be set back a year. Or maybe a bunch of years if they continue finishing just below the playoff cutline as an annual tradition. This could very well be the case.

Good development, obviously yes. Smart trades sounds great, but it's hard to pull off because every team you try to make a smart deal with is also trying to make a smart deal for themselves.

As for taking a shot at me personally, I don't care to respond to that. I would just suggest that maybe, just maybe, there's a small part of you that can have some understanding for the frustration many of us are having, those of us who watched the 04 run and have been waiting patiently for this team to make it back to the conference finals. We've watched and watched as this team has always purely taken a "make the playoffs this year by any means necessary" approach instead of taking more of a long view. Conny has rectified this to some extent, but you still hear Mr Baloney insisting that the team is pushing for the playoffs this year. Do you feel frustration when you hear that? I do.

In the end, none of us have any control nor influence over what the team actually does. On that you're right. Nevertheless, we care. We want to see them win a cup, but they don't appear to be on a path toward doing that. And that's what's hard to accept.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What’s crazy is that this isn’t just made up, but that it was only a month ago when you were saying you weren’t on team tank and that we should wait until the end of December to see what this team is before tanking or listening to offers on vets lol.

You’ve also said many of the same things you’re now suggesting is equivalent to “pushing back against a rebuild” for someone who has apparently been after one for 20 years.

Why make stuff like this up?

EDIT: even the “when it was 2-9 I saw!”, you had posts mocking team tank for feeling vindicated after a 1-7-1 record and accused them of suffering from “confirmation bias” and that they’d be way better going forward lol. Wild.

I came into the year expecting the team to make the playoffs. I saw 2-9-2 which included losses to the Brady-less Sens and the Preds. I did the math on what it would take them to get to 96 points. It looked too daunting. I changed my mind. It happens.

If you read the entirety of all my posts, you'd see the line of reasoning making perfect sense. Instead you're taking post segments out of context.

[Rhett44]

I'm trying to see a silver lining on this run we are making.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

I would LOVE to have a "fraud" roster like the Ducks or Sharks.

Good go cheer for them. The last time we played the Sharks they looked like an ECHL team and Celebrini looked like Jankowski.