Barn Burner: The Boys are Back!! (Boomer, Pinder & Warrener)

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Everyone said Kadri was an overpay at the time. Especially in this site. And he's a guy that actually prefers Canada. Coleman was also called an overpay for a middle 6er.

They didn't overpay for some others but they weren't really top UFAs either.

Stone turned them down flat. Gaudreau took less elsewhere.

Gaudreau situation was for being closer to family.

Kadri said he had the same offer somewhere else I believe and chose Calgary because he wanted to win.

[Strange Brew]

No one needs to announce a rebuild IMO. But talking to your fans like that is dumb. It’s telling that not many here (if any) are defending Maloney’s comments. Instead just a few people mocking those fans that believed him and are frustrated with what he said.

It’s all a little disappointing really. It was an attempt at PR that didn’t work at any level. Hopefully the guy can communicate better with those he works with but TBH I’m not struck with confidence.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Everyone said Kadri was an overpay at the time. Especially in this site. And he's a guy that actually prefers Canada. Coleman was also called an overpay for a middle 6er.

They didn't overpay for some others but they weren't really top UFAs either.

Stone turned them down flat. Gaudreau took less elsewhere.

Kadri had the same offer from the Islanders, Coleman was fair value when it was signed IMO.

Stone wanted to go play for his junior coach / GM and on a team that had just made the finals. I've also heard that the Flames couldn't give him his $10M ask because they couldn't afford him with Tkachuk an upcoming RFA and Neal on the books, it still took Vegas $9.5M to sign him.

Gaudreau would have signed if the Flames actually prioritized him 12 months earlier but his dads health, COVID and his wife being pregnant changed it all.

In the end this organization has had no issues getting free agents to sign here when they actually had a strong young core, there isn't really any way to debate that.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Still think this gets overblown. Players want to play for winners.

In the last 15 years guys like Frolik, Neal, Markstrom, Tanev, Coleman, Kadri, etc all signed here when they were top 5-10 players in their respective free agent classes.

When this team was competitive with a promising young core they had absolutely no issue attracting free agents. Even going back to the Iginla era they had no issue getting free agents to sign here.

Build a solid young core and you become attractive in free agency simple as that.

Florida was seen as one of the worst markets in the NHL for years, they drafted Ekblad, Huberdeau, Barkov and others and had a good young core and all of a sudden it became attractive and people pretend like that was always the case.

It’s the Calgary inferiority complex. Drives me crazy.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

I think I've made my point.

The Flames are a business who's primary objective is to sell an entertainment product and their #1 stakeholder are the fans. How ridiculous is it that the fans are kept out of the loop? Any basic business book would tell you that is a ridiculous approach and that's how you run an incompetent organization and a terrible environment. You need to trust your management to do what is right without having shackles on.

You know people in the Flames organization are literally on a media ban for talking about a potential rebuild? They're not allowed to say the word. There's repercussions for doing so. Like these guys are professional hockey guys that have been around the game for decades and you treat them like that? They're your management team. I can't believe that they can work like that under the conditions the franchise ownership gives them. But it's no surprise that Flames GM spot wasn't really highly coveted either after BT left. People don't want to work for Murray - as simple as that. They'd rather avoid it if they can.

I mean Murray runs shops with high morale, engaged employees, and constant positive job reviews all over the internet?

Or we're witnessing a cut-throat, over-reaching, owner doing his thing - the same thing we've seen across his other businesses, for decades.

RCR, and their lack of ANY capital investment in ~60 years of total ownership, and rarely any news stories about lack of sufficient OPEX for infrastructure.

Caveat; not withstanding; YYC civic arena negotiations, CNRL perpetual layoffs, and low engagement scores, RCR's material reduction in grooming, tenured employee attrition, Kicking Horse gondola hanger-arms, Quebec coming to to the rescue from Murray's lack of maintenance at Mt St Anne, terrain park abolishment (industry leading LOL), thank F.*&!K Charlie bought back the jewel.

the Athletic, ranked our teams' owner as one of the worst.

How does this not resonate?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

There is no point trying to argue, you make good points. I just think some posters in here are friends or family with ownership.

It is the only explanation, they will never criticize them.

More making things up

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

More making things up

Can you just ignore my posts because I find every one of your posts highly antagonistic. And yes, some people defend the organization no matter what on this site. I am not making it up.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

Can you just ignore my posts because I find every one of your posts highly antagonistic. And yes, some people defend the organization no matter what on this site. I am not making it up.

Stop making things up and mis representing what others say and I’ll stop talking about it

[FanIn80]

Fact: The Flames ownership and upper management have never once formally acknowledged a rebuild or even used the word rebuild in any way other than to deny that a rebuild is happening.

Fact: Both the Flames ownership and upper management have, just within the last two weeks, publicly stated that there is no interest in anything other than keeping the pieces we have, adding to them and finding a way to start winning games.

Fact: At the season ticket event ("Bonfire") during training camp, Huska, Conroy and Maloney each talked about the plan for this season, which was to continue from where they left off last season with the goal of making the playoffs.

Fact: Any vets that have been traded in recent years have been at the request of the players themselves. Either by demanding a trade or by telling management they had no intention of re-signing. A few of the players were even kept around until the very last possible minute, and were only traded when all efforts to convince them to stay had failed.

Fact: When those above trades took place, the focus was on brining back a young reclamation project who could take the departing player's place, and continue the goal of trying to make the playoffs. Contrast that with other teams who are rebuilding, who intentionally traded away their vets (at the teams' decision) and did so with the focus of getting the best draft capital they could acquire - often by taking on post-prime players on bad contracts as part of the deal to maximize the return of draft capital.

Fact: The teams referenced above have either bought out some of those contracts or pushed those post-prime players down to the bottom of their lineups in favour of playing and developing the new, younger core they have drafted.

Fact: Those teams have employed coaching staffs that are focused on developing their new cores at the NHL level, with winning games taking a backseat to player development - which has often resulted in consecutive years of drafting in the top three, and adding even more top-tier talent to their cores.

Fact: The Flames have done none of those things, and often go into each training camp promising to come out with drafted players playing prominent roles, only for the obvious to actually happen: too many vets with multi year contracts taking up all the lineup spots, with young players used sporadically in and out of the lineup depending on injuries etc. Even then, the vets at the bottom of the lineup are often move up to fill holes, and the young call ups take their spots in the bottom six.

Fact: The Flames made a big deal of publicly celebrating Gridin and Parekh making the opening night roster, but those of us who have been around this organization for a long time knew that Gridin only "made it" because Huberdeau and Pospisil were hurt. We also knew that Parekh only made the team because the sending him back to junior would have made him unavailable to the Flames for the entire season, and he wasn't allowed to play in the minors. To none of us' surprise, he opened the season in the pressbox, and was used very sporadically in limited roles - because this team is not focused on developing Parekh at the NHL level, they are focused on winning games, making the playoffs and being a contender.

People are going to argue against all of these facts, and in spite of the owners telling us there is no rebuild, upper management telling us there is no rebuild, the roster and lineup decisions made by the team telling us there is no rebuild... they're going to adamantly deny all of it and say there is a rebuild. I don't know why those people insist on that course of action, when it's in everyone's best interest to let this organization know we want actual changes, not more of the same "changes" that we see year after year, where the names and faces are exchanged but the methods and the results are always the same.

Yes, there are a lot of us who are happy right now when we lose games. It's not because we hate the team or because we're anarchists hoping for destruction. It's because this is a very big draft coming up, and every loss is like the hockey gods stepping in and taking things out of the hands of the organization and forcing a top 3 pick on us - because we know this team will do everything they can to screw things up if left to their devices. For years we wanted to trade guys out, but the team refused until the players forced them to trade them. We would still be watching a team of Lindholm, Hanifin, Markstrom, etc today if that didn't happen. So losses are worth celebrating, because each one that happens brings us closer and closer to finally getting game-breaking top-tier offensive threat that we desperately need.


For the record, I like Conroy and I like Huska. Unfortunately, their orders are very clearly "keep your players and win hockey games." Which means boring, low-event hockey because we don't have the skill for any other way to compete, and middle of the pack finishes preventing us from getting any skill. That's why I keep saying nothing's going to change until ownership relents and allows for a rebuild to happen. In the meantime, losing games forces us to draft in the top three, and that's about all we can ever hope for.

[cam_wmh]

nm

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Aside from injury risk and "falling off a cliff" (which neither player shows any sign of doing) what are people worried about if there's a delay in trading Kadri or Coleman? I don't see a lot of evidence that values would change over the year.

Before people wanted them traded (and Rasmus) because it would make the team worse, and help the tank. But the Flames are in last place anyway.

The Flames are currently in last. But they could go on a run of .500 hockey and finish 26th, get bumped by the lottery and draft 7th or 8th. And next season they’ll be worse with both off the roster. There’s better odds of drafting top 5 in the 2026 and 2027 drafts with them gone.

And both Kadri and Coleman will get a better return if a team’s getting them for multiple years. 2-3 playoffs > 1.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

Can you just ignore my posts because I find every one of your posts highly antagonistic. And yes, some people defend the organization no matter what on this site. I am not making it up.

LOL Pot calling the kettle black…

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

People act like Chicago, SJ, Anaheim...whatever other flavor of the month didn't/don't have any vets on their rosters

They traded all the ones worth anything for picks and replaced them with UFAs. And then turned around and traded some of them too.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Fact: Both the Flames ownership and upper management have, just within the last two weeks, publicly stated that there is no interest in anything other than keeping the pieces we have, adding to them and finding a way to start winning games.

When did the ownership speak publicly?

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Fact: Any vets that have been traded in recent years have been at the request of the players themselves. Either by demanding a trade or by telling management they had no intention of re-signing. A few of the players were even kept around until the very last possible minute, and were only traded when all efforts to convince them to stay had failed.

What about Toffoli? What about Magiapane?

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Fact: When those above trades took place, the focus was on brining back a young reclamation project who could take the departing player's place, and continue the goal of trying to make the playoffs.

What about all the picks they acquired? Including several 1sts and 2nds.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Fact: The Flames have done none of those things, and often go into each training camp promising to come out with drafted players playing prominent roles, only for the obvious to actually happen: too many vets with multi year contracts taking up all the lineup spots, with young players used sporadically in and out of the lineup depending on injuries etc. Even then, the vets at the bottom of the lineup are often move up to fill holes, and the young call ups take their spots in the bottom six.

What about their #1 goalie. What about their top winger.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Fact: The Flames made a big deal of publicly celebrating Gridin and Parekh making the opening night roster, but those of us who have been around this organization for a long time knew that Gridin only "made it" because Huberdeau and Pospisil were hurt. We also knew that Parekh only made the team because the sending him back to junior would have made him unavailable to the Flames for the entire season, and he wasn't allowed to play in the minors. To none of us' surprise, he opened the season in the pressbox, and was used very sporadically in limited roles - because this team is not focused on developing Parekh at the NHL level, they are focused on winning games, making the playoffs and being a contender.

Parekh also played in 11 games before getting hurt. Yes - a factor was that he couldn't play in the AHL which was probably the best spot for him. Absent that, they were handling him appropriately given the gaps in his game.


And so on.
I think you have a very liberal definition of the word facts.

[cam_wmh]

Jiri,

Why not give my post a peek? I invite your contrast to Murray's work-force models.

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

When did the ownership speak publicly?



What about Toffoli? What about Magiapane?



What about all the picks they acquired? Including several 1sts and 2nds.



What about their #1 goalie. What about their top winger.

And so on.
I think you have a very liberal definition of the word facts.

The way you talk down to people in your posts is very off putting. You can make your opinions known without adding snarky remarks at the end of every post.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

I don't know the tides seem to be turning for some fans. Talked to a few coworkers earlier who were very against a rebuild, but now they want to blow it up and start over. They have seen enough this year.

On a few occasions this season I’ve seen guys getting score updates on their phones and cheering when the Flames are losing. A couple of them are seasons tickets holders. I think most of the fanbase is all aboard the tank train. Especially seeing guys like Celebrini, Bedard, and Carlsson lighting it up.

[dino7c]

Yeah some of those facts arent facts...every player but Hanifin could have been signed if the Flames wanted. Flames shot first on Markstrom.

Flames have also been one of the lowest salary teams in the NHL and will have 6+ first rounders over 3 drafts. They are totally all in though!
Oh and they are in last place lol

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Jiri,

Why not give my post a peek? I invite your contrast to Murray's work-force models.

I know of his reputation but don't have any first hand experience.
But I've also never defended him and in fact have in the past expressed a view that I think ownership is a negative factor in this franchise.
In the current state I think ownership is allowing the team to re-build based on the actions they have taken. If they were really trying to win I just don't know how you can justify not doing anything, including spending more cap, to improve. Just doesn't make sense.

If I have a criticism it's that it's silly to be so firm on not calling it a re-build. As I've said, I don't think they are giving fans enough credit.

And if I have a fear, it's that ownership expects a shorter timeline to contend again than is realistic, and that lack of patience could be a factor in the re-build failing. But they may not have a choice because when I look at this team, and what's in the pipeline - I think they are going to be bad for 5 years at least.

But I don't think at any point I've defended the ownership.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

The way you talk down to people in your posts is very off putting. You can make your opinions known without adding snarky remarks at the end of every post.

Well when you state FACT the statement should probably be true