Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[peter12]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You think repeating that did something? As opposed to opinion polling?

And according to your hero, nothing changed and the carbon tax is still there. Which is it?

Look, I don't really love Poilievre. I'm just defending aspects of his leadership because the general tone around here is so blatantly partisan that I feel it necessary to insert some kind of balance.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Looks like the work of a troll who can't keep track of what positions he's pretending to hold.

Speaking of...

In any case, crossing the floor has existed for a long time in the Westminster Parliament. We have responsible government, not representative government. There is a huge difference, if an MP is not being treated fairly by his/her party, then they have a complete right to cross to a party that will treat them fairly.

1) We have responsible government. That means when we elect an MP, we entrust our power to them and give them the flexibility to act within their own discretion while in Parliament. If an MP decides another party would be a more effective vehicle for their values and beliefs, than they should be allowed to cross.

I do have a big problem with MPs, like Stronach and Emerson, crossing for positions of power. Crossing MPs should not be allowed to take Cabinet portfolios or positions as Parliamentary Secretaries.

2) The Commons is a very confrontational arena. Both sides, Opposition and Government, are constantly trying to upset and derail the other. In a minorit government, the government must have the possibility of gaining strategic advantage through the crossing of an opposition MP.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=35755

And also...

Party switching is all part of the Westminster system. If the voters don't like it, they can always boot them out next election.

Troutman - "Why should they have to wait? Because this is the way we have always done it? Reform is needed."

Because not everything needs to be turned into a populist sideshow. They were elected to govern, let them govern with the best interests of their constituents in mind.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=84735

Granted those threads are 15+ years old, so maybe Peter's thinking has just changed over the years?

[peter12]

The most important thing in my life has been to maintain a consistent point of view in my Calgarypuck posts over the last 20 years. I've failed. I've failed.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

I've failed. I've failed.

Finally, some honesty.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by peter12

I mean, yes. I kind of theorize to myself that the death of Jim Prentice mirrored a kind of decline in the quality of the conservative movement in Canada. Pair that with Jason Kenney being tossed out of AB and the self-inflicted wound of tossing Erin O'Toole out of the leadership before he had a real chance to make a mark.

Poilievre is still effective. You can't deny that he hasn't had an influence on turning the country towards the right again. I will just go back to an earlier point I made that few understand. It is historically difficult for a sitting Leader of the Official Opposition to parlay that into becoming Prime Minister and it is probably doubly so for someone like Poilievre who is combative and irritating. Great qualities for Leader of the OO but maybe not for a PM?

Prentice was a nothing-burger. The decline of the conservative movement was a result of the conservatives failing to understand the message of the people. After the incompetence of Stelmach and Redford, Alberta told the PCs to regroup and do better. We expected more effectiveness, accountability, and responsibility out of our government and our Premier. Under Klein we were debt free and then Stelmach and Redford managed to create over $10B in debt during boom oil years in a series of incompetent and shady moves.

Unfortunately, the PC party did not reflect on what they did wrong and come back stronger. Instead what they did was merge with the extreme right wing Wildrose party in order to try and rig the future elections by eliminating vote splitting.

The Federal PC party effectively did the same thing with the Reform party and have not been a viable party ever since.

As for Erin O'Toole, he was never going to cut it as leader because he was such a "yes man" during the leadership race. He went to the progressive conservatives and said "yes, we will protect abortion rights" and then went to the religious conservatives and said "yes, we will abolish abortions". Doing that won him the leadership race but it ruined him for ever winning an election.

Finally, the biggest problem with both the UPC and CPC is that the far-right movement have subverted both parties. Anyone who identified themselves as a "progressive conservative" in the past has either left the party or been pushed out. These parties are now effectively just the Wildrose and Reform parties wearing the shambling corpses of the Progressive Conservatives.

Both parties need a hard reset to get away from their Authoritarian / Fascist movements that they are currently driving toward by appealing to the far-right over the center.

[Fuzz]

The decline of the Conservative movement in Canada can easily be traced back to Preston Manning. I don't think we need to look elsewhere. He's got his finger prints over all of it.

[peter12]

They aren't PCs anymore.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

They aren't PCs anymore.

That's the problem. That's where they went wrong. That's Preston's doing.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by peter12

I mean, yes. I kind of theorize to myself that the death of Jim Prentice mirrored a kind of decline in the quality of the conservative movement in Canada. Pair that with Jason Kenney being tossed out of AB and the self-inflicted wound of tossing Erin O'Toole out of the leadership before he had a real chance to make a mark.

Poilievre is still effective. You can't deny that he hasn't had an influence on turning the country towards the right again. I will just go back to an earlier point I made that few understand. It is historically difficult for a sitting Leader of the Official Opposition to parlay that into becoming Prime Minister and it is probably doubly so for someone like Poilievre who is combative and irritating. Great qualities for Leader of the OO but maybe not for a PM?

I just don't think he's a good politician. That election was in the bag, and all he had to do was come out swinging for Canada last January, but he just couldn't do that. Instead, he brought out this incredibly stupid line that the US wasn't a concern; this was all the policies of Trudeau that were the concern.

And really... no one believed that! I can't even believe he could credibly say that with a straight face. All he had to do was pivot to looking the least bit Prime Ministerial and take the win. But, he's right back to his old ways, and evidently hasn't learned anything from that experience. It's actually stunning incompetence.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Slava

I just don't think he's a good politician. That election was in the bag, and all he had to do was come out swinging for Canada last January, but he just couldn't do that. Instead, he brought out this incredibly stupid line that the US wasn't a concern; this was all the policies of Trudeau that were the concern.

And really... no one believed that! I can't even believe he could credibly say that with a straight face. All he had to do was pivot to looking the least bit Prime Ministerial and take the win. But, he's right back to his old ways, and evidently hasn't learned anything from that experience. It's actually stunning incompetence.

I think its debatable how much to blame he was for that. He certainly didn't pivot fast enough but you know, you try having a winning strategy that is all of a sudden not very relevant. It would be hard to switch!

I actually haven't minded his strategy in the last couple of weeks. And looking at the polls, it is working. People on here dramatically underestimate the popularity of the Conservatives nation-wide.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by peter12

The most important thing in my life has been to maintain a consistent point of view in my Calgarypuck posts over the last 20 years. I've failed. I've failed.

It seems you are pretty consistent.

Liberals crossing to Conservatives = Good
Conservatives crossing to More Conservative = Good
Conservatives crossing to Liberals = Bad

But the rest of us are the ones with the team sports mentality.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

It seems you are pretty consistent.

Liberals crossing to Conservatives = Good
Conservatives crossing to More Conservative = Good
Conservatives crossing to Liberals = Bad

But the rest of us are the ones with the team sports mentality.

Man, you really got me.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by peter12

Man, you really got me.

To reiterate. These are both the same guy:

Party switching is all part of the Westminster system. If the voters don't like it, they can always boot them out next election.

Crossing the floor is gross. It's unfortunate our system allows it. His constituents didn't elect a Liberal, they elected a Conservative. A floor-crossing should automatically trigger a by-election.

You...you are that guy.

I think it's a bit easier for people to believe that what changed wasn't your actual beliefs about these types of situations, but rather which direction the person was walking when they crossed that floor.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by peter12

I actually think the populist position will grow more and more popular. Canada is facing a lot of headwinds and our elites have not proven themselves up those challenges.

This I agree with. I think the populist movement is absolutely going to gain ground in Canada.

However, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding you have as to who PP is. He has catchy slogans but his actions show the lie - He is literally the opposite of a populist.

A populist is defined as someone who is for the people and against the elites. The elites are the shadowy rich people who are pulling the strings and essentially trying to control society. Essentially the Billionaires and their Corporations.

PP tries to twist things around. He throws his slogans around but then tries to label the elites as scientists, doctors, and "woke people" instead of the Billionaires. He does this because the Billionaires own him. PP loves hanging out with Billionaires and having expensive fundraising dinners in their homes. (If you do not want to read the Breach article, it details 10 Billionaire mansions that PP has fundraised in based on the data gathered by Elections Canada). They have a second article detailing another 50.

At the same time, PP's wife is receiving free office space from Shopify.

Everything about PP shows his Billionaire-first actions and thus he will never be a real populist. As each conservative realizes that lie, we will get one step closer to the end of his political career. The question just becomes, will we realize that lie now or do we have to wait for him to become PM and turn into a full on Trump-style dictator to understand that he never cared about the people?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

To reiterate. These are both the same guy:

Party switching is all part of the Westminster system. If the voters don't like it, they can always boot them out next election.

Crossing the floor is gross. It's unfortunate our system allows it. His constituents didn't elect a Liberal, they elected a Conservative. A floor-crossing should automatically trigger a by-election.

You...you are that guy.

I think it's a bit easier for people to believe that what changed wasn't your actual beliefs about these types of situations, but rather which direction the person was walking when they crossed that floor.

Haha, that's fine! I don't care! Believe what you want. Seriously, dredging up 15 year old messages from a fairly defunct Calgary Flames message board in order to make a point is hilarious. Yes, you totally got me. I'm a fraud. Who am I anymore? I don't even know.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The decline of the Conservative movement in Canada can easily be traced back to Preston Manning. I don't think we need to look elsewhere. He's got his finger prints over all of it.

The Conservative movement is now run by billionaires, oil and mining barons, think tanks, and evangelicals.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by troutman

The Conservative movement is now run by billionaires, oil and mining barons, think tanks, and evangelicals.

Where before it was bankers and Bay Street lawyers? Come on, what are we even doing here? Mulroney nostalgia?

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by peter12

Where before it was bankers and Bay Street lawyers? Come on, what are we even doing here? Mulroney nostalgia?

You are the one you brought up populism. Why hide from it now?

[puckedoff]

Abacus did a poll by age demographic, and the CPC is more popular with voters under 60. This board just skews to geezers, but the future isn't so bleak for Pierre.



https://abacusdata.ca/abacus-data-po...ead-of-budget/

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by troutman

The Conservative movement is now run by billionaires, oil and mining barons, think tanks, and evangelicals.

It might be backed by billionaires, oil and mining barons, but it's run by alt-right fanboys and christofacists. A small, but very important distinction. The neoliberal think tank crowd and run-of-the mill evangelicals of the 90s and 00s have long been pushed to the side.