Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No, you just need to get back in touch with reality. No amount of marketing is suddenly going to make this thing appealing to a majority of people, the numbers and overall sentiment in Alberta just don’t support it.

And yes, Smith and Nenshi are different, you’re not actually offering up anything of substance as to why they aren’t, outside of just “one is toying with a referendum and the other called her bluff” which just doesn’t support the basic idea that they’re the same at all, and has zero connection to the CIA lol.

Conspiracies like this aren’t “seeing the threat,” they’re a legitimate sign of mental illness. I would talk to a professional about it. Not even joking or being snarky.

I think snark is inherent in 90% of what you post and if it is not intentional then you're not self aware enough to know it.

You are interpreting what I said from a nice safe cocoon of frankly ignorance. You could fill a library with books solely about CIA interventions in democracies around the world. It's naive to think they have no interests here.

You don't need to be employed by them to work for them. From the perspective of a party that wants to add Alberta to the USA, Nenshi and Smith's rhetoric about having a referendum accomplishes the same thing.

US passports and 1:1 exchange of currency have already been vetted by Washington and it's cronies. Once influencers, algorithms and TV start you'll see the tide turn. I doubt Carney can out spend that to make the case.

I get it, Nenshi is your guy. You think I am calling him a CIA agent and saying that he is the same as Smith. To use your own words, that is because you are stupid.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yes, it would, so if your argument is that it’s not valid before separation, why is it valid to you after?

My position has nothing to do with whether something is democratic or not. It’s a response to your absurd position that telling people they should exercise their personal right to self determination instead of trying to force a decision on everyone is someone a suggestion that they have less of a right to self determination.

It’s nonsensical gobbledy####.

If people don’t want to be part of Canada, there are plenty of decisions they can make that have minimal impact on anyone else. It’s not at all unreasonable or discounting their rights to suggest maybe they should do that.

So it sounds like you agree that if a Majority of Albertans wanted to separate you would accept that as the will of the people?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by GGG

So it sounds like you agree that if a Majority of Albertans wanted to separate you would accept that as the will of the people?

Personally, I would form a militia.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Does “valid projection of democracy” account for the fact that the pro-Brexit majority there was sold on a false bill of goods on Brexit… which many of the enthusiastic pro-Brexiters came to lament in short order after finding their employers cutting jobs and losing money hand over fist as EU trade agreements went bye bye and decimated UK-EU trade, investments in the UK, etc.? Hell, the effects are still being felt today. It was a proper “Leopards Ate My Face” scenario over there in the wake of Brexit.

If you’re blatantly misled and outright lied to with respect to an outcome then pick that thing, is that an example of democracy in action?

Usually, we would call that fraud.

This certainly is a problem of modern democracy that our current laws don’t seem to address.

[Titan2]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

https://cochranenow.com/articles/alb...ndence-tonight

The Republican Party of Alberta will outline its five-step vision for a stronger, independent Alberta tonight (May 9) at the Cochrane RancheHouse.
“For too long, Alberta has borne the weight of Confederation,” a party news release stated. “Our energy industry has been demonized, our wealth drained, and our people treated as bargaining chips in Ottawa’s political game. In the face of this sustained neglect, the UCP has chosen appeasement over action.”

We should all buy memberships and support these people completely. They will siphon at least 20% away from the UCP. Well worth throwing out some mailers and deleting texts.

[Titan2]

These idiots are concerned the NDP was bad for investment because of a royalty review. Now they are saying we should separate and create a new country. Bizarre. We have the safest banking system in the world. All of a sudden ATB is the only choice. A gov't owned entity.

"The British North America Act gives Parliament responsibility over national defence, money, banking, bankruptcy, Aboriginal affairs, citizenship, marriage and divorce, shipping, railways, fisheries, interprovincial and international trade, the post office, criminal law, penitentiaries (which house prisoners serving sentences of two years or more), the census and statistics, weights and measures, patents, and copyrights. A constitutional amendment in 1940 gave the federal government power over employment insurance. Court rulings later recognized that federal jurisdiction includes several trans-provincial matters that had not existed at the time of Confederation: radio and television broadcasting, aviation, pipelines, and telecommunications.

In addition, the federal government can use its spending power to enter the provincial realm. For instance, the federal government was able to create a national medical care program by sharing costs with any province that agreed to establish a health care plan that met certain standards."
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....ral-government

Trying to negotiate land settlements with the indigenous groups with treaties in place with the CROWN. What about transport regulations? Who will oversee the airports?

The shortsightedness of this is absolutely astounding and completely anticipated. Tell stupid people what they want to hear and they will follow you into hell.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I think snark is inherent in 90% of what you post and if it is not intentional then you're not self aware enough to know it.

You are interpreting what I said from a nice safe cocoon of frankly ignorance. You could fill a library with books solely about CIA interventions in democracies around the world. It's naive to think they have no interests here.

You don't need to be employed by them to work for them. From the perspective of a party that wants to add Alberta to the USA, Nenshi and Smith's rhetoric about having a referendum accomplishes the same thing.

US passports and 1:1 exchange of currency have already been vetted by Washington and it's cronies. Once influencers, algorithms and TV start you'll see the tide turn. I doubt Carney can out spend that to make the case.

I get it, Nenshi is your guy. You think I am calling him a CIA agent and saying that he is the same as Smith. To use your own words, that is because you are stupid.

1:1 exchange of currency wouldn't work at all. Sure, it sounds good that your bank account is in USD, but anything with any external focus wouldnt work at all.

For a "made in Alberta" example, take the oil industry. One reason it's so successful is many/most of the costs are in CAD while the product is exported in USD. If everyone's salary was now in USD all exporters would be screwed and go out of business, so you have to adjust salaries.

And if you adjust salaries you have to adjust rents or nobody will be able to makr rent. And if you adjust rents you have to adjust mortgages or there will be a crippling wave of foreclosures. And if you adjust mortgages you have to adjust bank accounts or you've just killed all the banks. And so then you've adjusted everything at a market exchange rate.

[puffnstuff]

Originally Posted by troutman

Personally, I would form a militia.

Will you have a scheme to march up and down the square?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I think snark is inherent in 90% of what you post and if it is not intentional then you're not self aware enough to know it.

You are interpreting what I said from a nice safe cocoon of frankly ignorance. You could fill a library with books solely about CIA interventions in democracies around the world. It's naive to think they have no interests here.

You don't need to be employed by them to work for them. From the perspective of a party that wants to add Alberta to the USA, Nenshi and Smith's rhetoric about having a referendum accomplishes the same thing.

US passports and 1:1 exchange of currency have already been vetted by Washington and it's cronies. Once influencers, algorithms and TV start you'll see the tide turn. I doubt Carney can out spend that to make the case.

I get it, Nenshi is your guy. You think I am calling him a CIA agent and saying that he is the same as Smith. To use your own words, that is because you are stupid.

I don’t think you get much of anything, based on your posts.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

1:1 exchange of currency wouldn't work at all. Sure, it sounds good that your bank account is in USD, but anything with any external focus wouldnt work at all.

For a "made in Alberta" example, take the oil industry. One reason it's so successful is many/most of the costs are in CAD while the product is exported in USD. If everyone's salary was now in USD all exporters would be screwed and go out of business, so you have to adjust salaries.

And if you adjust salaries you have to adjust rents or nobody will be able to makr rent. And if you adjust rents you have to adjust mortgages or there will be a crippling wave of foreclosures. And if you adjust mortgages you have to adjust bank accounts or you've just killed all the banks. And so then you've adjusted everything at a market exchange rate.

Bringing facts to a conspiracy theorist who has difficult discerning reality is like trying to feed a newborn steak.

Like yeah it is technically sustenance. Not much they can do with it though.

[FacePaint]

Referendums are garbage. Why bother voting for people or parties if this is how elected officials abdicate responsibility? Slow clap for Premier... Deserves a bloody academy award for getting even good posters like GGG to go down the most ridiculous discussions around separation instead of doing her job in areas like affordability, healthcare, education. It's simply stunning.

[puffnstuff]

Everything old is new again...read this thread, populists try to distract from corruption

https://bsky.app/profile/jaredwesley.../3loqzj3l6v22c

In Alberta, it's beginning to look a lot like 1991 Saskatchewan. Like today's UCP, the Devine PCs were embroiled in scandal. And they, too, turned to referendums as both a distraction and attempt to rebrand themselves as a 'party of the people'. It didn't work. Here's some background.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Everything old is new again...read this thread, populists try to distract from corruption

https://bsky.app/profile/jaredwesley.../3loqzj3l6v22c

In Alberta, it's beginning to look a lot like 1991 Saskatchewan. Like today's UCP, the Devine PCs were embroiled in scandal. And they, too, turned to referendums as both a distraction and attempt to rebrand themselves as a 'party of the people'. It didn't work. Here's some background.

The UCP are still not populists. They pretend to be populists while actually being corrupt corporatist grifters.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Wolven

The UCP are still not populists. They pretend to be populists while actually being corrupt corporatist grifters.

I mean...this seems to be the case with all modern populists...

[Amethyst]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I have no faith in Alberttans not choosing to do the dumbest thing when promised more money.

And a lot of Albertans think that Quebec is using the threat of separation to "get stuff." So they will vote for it just because they think it will make the federal government give stuff to Alberta. They're the Trump supporters who are now upset that they are losing their jobs.

[troutman]

The term "populism" has long been subject to mistranslation and used to describe a broad and often contradictory array of movements and beliefs. Its usage has spanned continents and contexts, leading many scholars to characterize it as a vague or overstretched concept, widely invoked in political discourse, yet inconsistently defined and poorly understood. [wiki]

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I mean...this seems to be the case with all modern populists...

Kinda. Bernie Sanders is the best example to hold up when talking about an actual populist. Tim Walz as a governor looks like a good example too. In Canada, the NDP are the populists but they have lost their way a bit. If you have to drill down you could label these people as "progressive populists".

Populists advocate for policies that are good for the people... not just say popular things. And if they are advocating for corporation rights, like the right for a corporation to donate to (read as bribe) politicians then they are a corporatist.

Using terminology correctly is important and taking back words that are being subverted will help people understand what is going on around them. Trump, Smith, and PP are not populists in any way, shape, or form. They just say nonsense that is popular with their base and then do the corporatist / autocratic thing when they get into power.

[GGG]

I think you miss the second component of populism. A key point in populism is anti-elitism. It isn’t just look at how good these policies will be for the people. It’s look at the current group serving only the elites our policies will be for you the people.

Creating the enemy of “the elite” is the key component in any populist movement.

[Fuzz]

At a news conference, APP lawyer Jeff Rath pulled a blue provincial flag off an easel to reveal the independence referendum question: "Do you agree that the province shall become a sovereign country and cease to be a province of Canada?"

He touted this ballot question as far clearer than the ones Quebec put forth in its 1995 secession referendum, "and as serious as a heart attack."

Hrmm, a heart attack does sound like an interesting option for you.

They suggested oil and gas development would double within five years, multiple new pipelines would extend into the United States, and residents of a breakaway Alberta republic would still keep their Canadian passports and Canada Pension Plan entitlements.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...tion-1.7532890

Well, it's a good thing you are operating in the realm of reality, where these things will absolutely happen, some how. Presumably our treaty partners will be happy to learn they, based on nothing at all, that they can still use the Canadian passport. That should placate the legal issues too.

Can someone buy this guy a one way plane ticket to Texas already?

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think you miss the second component of populism. A key point in populism is anti-elitism. It isn’t just look at how good these policies will be for the people. It’s look at the current group serving only the elites our policies will be for you the people.

Creating the enemy of “the elite” is the key component in any populist movement.

Agreed... to a point. I don't think you really have to make an enemy of the elite to be a populist, but you definitely need to ensure that two points are front and center of your policy:

1) Anyone lucky enough to be born into the elite, or to luck into becoming super rich, are paying a significant amount of taxes. These people likely only got to become rich because of the opportunities that our society provided them and most of their money likely comes from the people and/or resources of our society.

2) Ensure that the super rich people are not able to apply pressure or influence on government through their wealth to gain unfair advantages over regular people. (Essentially the opposite of what the UCP is doing as they are actively enabling gifts to politicians and donations / bribes from corporations)

If said rich people fight against these guardrails of democracy and try to push for oligarchy then, ya, treat them like enemies and hire teams of people to ensure that audits are performed and everything stays above board.