Making the playoffs or keeping our top-10 first round pick 2025?

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Bonded

They'd look a lot better if they kept Eichel

Were they even any good when they had Eichel?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

How many cups have the Bruins won without Seguin? I really hate this argument that a top player didn't matter. When it clearly was one of the differences in that cup finals.

It also ignores the other 14 of 15 cup winners to make a point. Of course anyone could win a cup, I could win the lottery tomorrow. But the chances are so low without a top pick player.

And also good players are begging to get traded to Vegas, everyone wants to go there. No one wants to come to Calgary unless they are being overpaid. Not a remotely comparable situation.

I didn't ignore the other ones, you are just making definitive statements that aren't true. Seguin had 7 points and averaged 10 minutes per game in the playoffs. He wasn't a top a player for them.

In theory the Flames fit your criteria for a cup winner right now.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I just mean the culture, and that is probably why Seattle is spinning their wheels. Francis screwed it up and they aren't very good.

Does Vegas have a good team culture? Most of the rumours or stories that I have heard suggest that it is a pretty toxic and cutthroat organization.

I think they got extremely lucky with the amount of talent they were able to acquire in their expansion draft and that propelled them into cup contention faster than any expansion team should.

Following that, they have worked very hard to circumvent the salary cap to get an advantage in the playoffs.

Seattle didn't get the crazy GM trades to bolster their initial talent pool and never had a chance to be cup contenders right out of the gate. Without that, there is no real need to go crazy trying to bypass the salary cap to put them over the top...

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Does Vegas have a good team culture? Most of the rumours or stories that I have heard suggest that it is a pretty toxic and cutthroat organization.

I think they got extremely lucky with the amount of talent they were able to acquire in their expansion draft and that propelled them into cup contention faster than any expansion team should.

Following that, they have worked very hard to circumvent the salary cap to get an advantage in the playoffs.

Seattle didn't get the crazy GM trades to bolster their initial talent pool and never had a chance to be cup contenders right out of the gate. Without that, there is no real need to go crazy trying to bypass the salary cap to put them over the top...

I think the players rallied around not being wanted by their teams, some players got pushed to Vegas because their current team wanted other players protected.

Sorry wasn't talking management. Doesn't hurt to be cutthroat like Vegas.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

Look at the list of the cup winners over the past 15 years. You absolutely need game breaking talent taken from a top pick to win a cup these days:

Panthers - Barkov (pick 2), Ekblad (Pick 1)

Golden Knights - Eichel (pick 2), Pietrangelo (pick 4)

Avalanche - Mackinnon (pick 1), Makar (pick 4)

Lightning - Stamkos (pick 1)

Blues - Pietrangelo (pick 4)

Capitals - Ovechkin (pick 1)

Penguins - Crosby (pick 1), Malkin (pick 2)

Blackhawks Toews (pick 3), Kane (pick 1)

Kings - Doughty (pick 2)

Bruins - Seguin (pick 2)

I can't believe anyone here is denying it when the proof is right there. You NEED a top 4 pick at minimum to win a cup and in most cases more elite talent.

A lot of these teams were surrounded with other good to great players. The surrounding cast matters a lot. But you need the elite game breaking talent at the center of it.

You just keep on moving the goalposts. No one is arguing that you don't need good players. But there are lots of ways to construct a good team, and an elite goalie is just as attractive as any other individual piece.

No #1 pick since 2015 has won the cup, and only 2 since 2009 have. And one of those was Ekblad, who is a good player, but isn't an elite talent.

The object is to build a great TEAM (something Boston has done). Do elite players help? Obviously. But a great goalie is an elite player too.

Also, just stop with the Seguin and Boston argument - it isn't helping you at all.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

Look at the list of the cup winners over the past 15 years. You absolutely need game breaking talent taken from a top pick to win a cup these days:

Panthers - Barkov (pick 2), Ekblad (Pick 1)

Golden Knights - Eichel (pick 2), Pietrangelo (pick 4)

Avalanche - Mackinnon (pick 1), Makar (pick 4)

Lightning - Stamkos (pick 1)

Blues - Pietrangelo (pick 4)

Capitals - Ovechkin (pick 1)

Penguins - Crosby (pick 1), Malkin (pick 2)

Blackhawks Toews (pick 3), Kane (pick 1)

Kings - Doughty (pick 2)

Bruins - Seguin (pick 2)

I can't believe anyone here is denying it when the proof is right there. You NEED a top 4 pick at minimum to win a cup and in most cases more elite talent.

A lot of these teams were surrounded with other good to great players. The surrounding cast matters a lot. But you need the elite game breaking talent at the center of it.

Lightning won one cup with Stamkos playing exactly one PO game (11 years after he was drafted too). Caps won with Ovie - 14 years after drafting him.

Flames have a 3OA. Two years ago they had a 3, two 5s a 7, and a 10 OA on the team.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I think the players rallied around not being wanted by their teams, some players got pushed to Vegas because their current team wanted other players protected.

Sorry wasn't talking management. Doesn't hurt to be cutthroat like Vegas.

The collection of unwanted misfits is the story of every expansion team.

The difference with Vegas was the collective brainfart of NHL GMs that launched Vegas straight to the top.

[chummer]

I was listening to Vancouver radio this morning and they said the last wildcard will likely come down to the Canucks and Flames. Neither Brough or Halford think the Flames can sustain this run and refuse to give them any credit. It's Vancouver radio so that's fine, they hate the Flames. Kind of pissed though me off when they had Greg Wyshynski on and he said the Flames didn't deserve to be in the playoffs. WTF man, whoever makes the playoffs deserves to be there.

Damn I hope they can knock the Canucks out of that last wildcard.

[Muta]

I say the Flames go all in for the playoffs, and then easily draft a superstar centre or three in the later rounds. #### wasting a pick doing that in the first round; we just drafted our current superstar goalie in the seventh round so we know how to do this. Mid-round picks are now where it's at. Have faith in our scouts y'all!

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by chummer

I was listening to Vancouver radio this morning and they said the last wildcard will likely come down to the Canucks and Flames. Neither Brough or Halford think the Flames can sustain this run and refuse to give them any credit. It's Vancouver radio so that's fine, they hate the Flames. Kind of pissed though me off when they had Greg Wyshynski on and he said the Flames didn't deserve to be in the playoffs. WTF man, whoever makes the playoffs deserves to be there.

Damn I hope they can knock the Canucks out of that last wildcard.

To be fair, I think the Flames had a really easy schedule since the start of December. We've had a pile of home games and no back-to-back games until mid-January.

I think the next couple of weeks will be a better test of the Flames season with only 2 "easy" games in the next 8.

[Goriders]

That should be their goal. If I was the coach I would post those comments somewhere in the dressing room

[Roof-Daddy]

The Sabres weren't very when they did have Eichel, and as far as them getting fleeced in the McDavid draft, that's kind of the point. A team can tank their a$$es off, end up dead last and get boned by the draft lottery.

Tanking is not a sure fire way to build a winner. It's one way to potentially build a winner, but not a sure fire way.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The Sabres weren't very when they did have Eichel, and as far as them getting fleeced in the McDavid draft, that's kind of the point. A team can tank their a$$es off, end up dead last and get boned by the draft lottery.

Tanking is not a sure fire way to build a winner. It's one way to potentially build a winner, but not a sure fire way.

I guess my idea of tanking is not gunning for #1 overall but getting in the top 3 or 5. If you win the lottery you win. 2026 I do want #1 overall tho.

I mean I wouldn't mind having Eichel right now.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I didn't ignore the other ones, you are just making definitive statements that aren't true. Seguin had 7 points and averaged 10 minutes per game in the playoffs. He wasn't a top a player for them.

In theory the Flames fit your criteria for a cup winner right now.

This is where the “definitive” argument fails.

From the list that shows “definitively” that you need a top 5 pick, some of those players barely played, some were traded for, some weren’t a factor.

Calgary meets the criteria today. So they have met the minimum criteria required to win a cup. Now we can move on to more interesting arguments over team composition.

[dino7c]

No kidding...Flames leading goal scorer was 3rd overall. Cup incoming.

[gvitaly]

We just need to sign 1st overall pick - Ekblad in the offseason to become a contender... Challenge accepted.

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

……..I can't believe anyone here is denying it when the proof is right there. You NEED a top 4 pick at minimum to win a cup and in most cases more elite talent.

A lot of these teams were surrounded with other good to great players. The surrounding cast matters a lot. But you need the elite game breaking talent at the center of it.

Well
You have me convinced.
Let’s teach our current group of kids that losing is where it’s at and then all we have to do is win a lottery or 2.

Simple!

[looooob]

Originally Posted by chummer

I was listening to Vancouver radio this morning and they said the last wildcard will likely come down to the Canucks and Flames. Neither Brough or Halford think the Flames can sustain this run and refuse to give them any credit. It's Vancouver radio so that's fine, they hate the Flames. Kind of pissed though me off when they had Greg Wyshynski on and he said the Flames didn't deserve to be in the playoffs. WTF man, whoever makes the playoffs deserves to be there.

Damn I hope they can knock the Canucks out of that last wildcard.

the Canucks I reckon for a variety of reasons have the inside track still here, but there was a 28 point difference between the 2 teams last year, and then in the offseason one team jettisoned other key players and entered the season with infinite cap space and a predicted bottom 5 finish- so which one 'deserves' this may depend on the definition of deserve

[NegativeSpace]

It does seem like the Canucks' dressing room is a bit of a mess. The Canucks are 3-3-4 in their last 10 and they don't have many easy games coming up. They need to sort things out quickly as they have been dropping steadily for a while now.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by dino7c

No kidding...Flames leading goal scorer was 3rd overall. Cup incoming.

There’s flawed logic on both sides of the argument, but paying top dollar to high profile free agents who were once drafted in the top 3-5 anyone can do, and is not the basis for the rebuild advocates insistence on adding these players. The real value is having these (elite) players when they’re cost controlled and are outperforming their salaries, giving the team the opportunity to add more depth and talent across the roster than when their contracts that span their free agency kick in.

This fact we have top picks on our roster is always trotted out and misses the whole point.