Cheifs Threaten Train Blockades on June 29

[jammies]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I think he was suggesting the same plan as you were, and demonstrating (to me, anyway) how absurd and unfair it would be when you are on the receiving end of "the solution" you proposed. I didn't think it was any more emotional (or unworkable) than your post.

Breaking promises, imposing ultimatums, expelling people from their homes.. these are the things your are suggesting. Haven't we heard this story before? And call me crazy, but I think anyone who doesn't want to join a society that condones (or outright promotes) this kind of behaviour from its government is the smart one.

Are you seriously suggesting that in a 99 year timeframe, where people (who are not even born yet) will be given a large sum of money (I'm not talking $50 and a clean suit, like they just got out of prison) upon reaching the age of majority to do whatever they like with, in compensation for the loss of their treaty rights, is somehow comparable to a modern-day Trail of Tears? Nobody currently on the reserve loses anything at all - they can live there until they die, if they want.

The newly born simply won't have treaty rights. That's all. Nothing stops the band leaders from leasing out reserve land to these non-treaty people now, and nothing will stop them then, either, so if they want to stay on the reserve, they can, they just will need to understand that after 99 years, the new landlord will be the government, and the infrastructure is their own responsibility, not the taxpayers.

This is no different than the umpteen developments on native land now, where 99 year leases are the norm, and I don't hear a huge outcry about how these poor condo-dwellers are going to be turfed after a mere century to prepare.

As far as breaking promises go, governments are sovereign entities that can unilaterally abrogate any agreements they wish to, and this is built into the Constitution via the notwithstanding clause for this very reason. Whether or not the First Nations agree, the goverment has the legal power to end the treaties and possess the land if it has the will to do so, whereas the First Nations do not have the power to do likewise. This is a fundamental difference that invalidates the comparison Vulcan made.

You are right in that this not fair or just. Let me repeat that, since it didn't get thru the first time I said it - I don't think this is justice; but the question remains - what is justice in this case? Is it right to condemn future generations of Natives to apartheid because their ancestors tried and failed to preserve their way of life by signing these treaties? Is it just that the Native leaders live in luxury while their people can't even get clean water to drink? What should we do about the Native suicide rate being 2-3 times the baseline rate for the rest of Canada, or the fact that 11% of the population in our prisons are Native? If you think, as I do, that the root of the Native's problems is their special status, then the solution is to end that status.

If you have a better way of doing it, by all means share it, or show me where I am wrong; however, I am not interested in long-winded explanations of what I already know - that the Natives get a raw deal, and if it was me in their shoes, I'd be pissed. True, but irrelevant to the issue, except for anyone who thinks feelings validate opinions.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I think we should move you to N. Sask. or AB and take your home away.

Last I checked, the gov't can take my home away anytime they want, without me having to move. Maybe send your MP a letter, I'm sure something can be worked out.

[Vulcan]

What I'm suggesting there jammies is that most of the problems the natives have, is from our interference and deciding what is right for them. The list goes on and on. Natives are finally finding some stability and you want to blow it all up again. Progress is being made although like a lot of people who are trully ignorant about natives, you don't see it.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

How so, please explain that to me. You seem to be saying that everytime you see a Native person he/she is drunk, i call that racism and you deny being racist.

Actually, I made no such comment. I asked a question that had a point. The point, was that many people see more of the drunks than they do the sober natives. That forms perceptions. Those perceptions define reality for people, and reality is what you want to change.

You are complaining that people view natives with very negative stereotypes. I am supplying a possible explanation for it.

You then say that they need to come off the reserves in order to change the perception others have of them, i'm telling you that not everyone has the same perception of a Native person as you do. Would you agree so far?

Actually, I say that they need to come off the reserves in order to improve their own lives, that of their families, and that of their children and grandchildren. Helping to change overall perceptions of natives is a side benefit.

So i'm telling you that maybe the change has to start with people like you, who see's only what they want to see or what they are told to see. I grew up next to a reserve in Calgary, played hockey with many natives and some liked to drink, some didn't, very similar to my friends of other races. Are you following along?

Changing my perception will not motivate a person without motivation. I work with somoene who is 1/2 native, and one of my best friends is married to a guy who is 1/4 native. Wanna know what they have in common? Their parents and grandparents chose to go out into society and make something of their lives. As a result, they have as well.

I'm not agreeing with you as the way that you portray yourself to me by what you have written is hardly something that i would even mildly agree with. You can say that what your saying isn't racist, it's the facts, but i will disagree with you while you continue to beleive it.

You have stereotyped Natives as being drunks, i haven't. Do you see me agreeing with you?

You are agreeing with me that people view their perceptions as truth. Further, you took one comment and created an entire myth surrounding my beliefs and character based on stereotypes and assumptions. In the process, you have become what you are fighting in this thread.

You are allowing your flawed perception to shape your reality.

Perhaps you need to change as well, my friend.

[guzzy]

I am a big believer that if the first nations people want to improve living conditions they should take a whole bunch of that free university and get themselves on to the reserves teaching and socializing youths and children. They have more opportunity than any other citizen in Canada and they squander it away. Do something about it instead of telling us that our grandfathers grandfathers stole their land. Get over it already. They need to try to fix themselves. Once the government sees them improving their own they might be more inclined to change the way they do things towards first nation people. The govt, like most of the canadian population is sick and tired of the whining about what our ancestors did. It is not our ancestors fault that one in ten native people graduate high school. We backed them into a wall and for 100 years they have done nothing but complain and ask for handouts. They need to improve their own lot in life before the average canadian would support more funding to people who don't care.

[Vulcan]

Another thing jammies, you come right out and say "this is not fair and just". I don't think we are on the same page and I can't even believe that a Canadian approaches life in this manor, why don't you take your ideas back to the dark ages, maybe you could join the Inquisition and burn a few people at the stake.

[WessThompson]

Lots can be said on this topic...but I will add my opinion.

I spent most of my life living in a city with a large reserve on it's border. I have dealt with many natives who are simply angry at the world. I am at a loss as to why exactly the natives are free to carry a racist attitude towards whites...yet it is the whites who are racist, and guilty of wrong doing. Sure there are whites who are racist against natives...and there are MANY natives racist against whites.

I am in the group who believes we are not responsible for our ancestors actions...and we should certainly not be responsible for paying out the A$$ to support natives. They can work like the rest of us, feel free. I don't give handouts to whites who are more than capable of working...so why should we give that luxury to the natives?? As pointed out...nobody forces natives to live on the reserve. They choose to do so. Why? The price is right. Of course, this is somehow still not enough.

I have been cornered in bars and other places by natives...calling me a skinhead, etc. Hmmm...so because I have a shaved head I am a racist?? Is that hair profiling??

I admit...I have the utmost respect for natives of the past...but little for the GROUP of natives who are looking for handouts. Yes, I am aware that ALL are not. I have met many natives who are excellent people.

Something I often heard from the natives was about their treaties, culture, heritage, etc...and everything they demand seems to fall back on that. Oddly enough, I have a greater understanding of native history, culture, and heritage than the majority of natives these days. I spent a large portion of my life working in native american archaeology. It is amazing how afraid of the whole "racism" tag the government is, as well as people in general. When natives can demand to have artifacts back to "re-bury"...something is wrong. Artifacts which were collected 100 years ago are being taken by natives as they "belong to the native people" or their ancestors. What the hell?? If I tried to confiscate a native persons coin collection or antique collection with claims of those items belonging to "the white man", do you think that would fly? I won't even get started on the "grave goods act"...

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

What I'm suggesting there jammies is that most of the problems the natives have, is from our interference and deciding what is right for them. The list goes on and on. Natives are finally finding some stability and you want to blow it all up again. Progress is being made although like a lot of people who are trully ignorant about natives, you don't see it.

I work sometimes on a reserve (not for the reserve directly, but I'll leave it at that), and if what I see is progress, I shudder to think what it was like before. Your assumption that I am ignorant about natives is simply wrong - I have considerable first-hand experience with how the reserves are, how the people that live there are (mostly friendly but unmotivated), and how the band leaders in general are (mostly incompetent and corrupt).

Stop assuming that because I don't agree with you, I am somehow "ignorant" about Natives, which seems to be a code word for "racist". I have no problem with Natives, I have a problem with the idea of segregration, and whether or not some treaty mandates it should be, I do not agree and will continue to advocate ways that will end what I think is a disgraceful situation.

Once you actually address just exactly why de facto segregration is a good idea, and why it is not, as I have claimed, institutionalized racism, then you will have some chance of convincing me of anything. As it is, all your arguments are irrelevant to me, as you keep arguing about my proposed methods, without coming up with any coherent strategy of your own (other than to continue policies which haven't worked for the last 130 years, as far as I can tell), and most especially without addressing my main point, which is that the entire system of treaties, reserves, and special status is wrong, wrong, and wrong.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Another thing jammies, you come right out and say "this is not fair and just". I don't think we are on the same page and I can't even believe that a Canadian approaches life in this manor, why don't you take your ideas back to the dark ages, maybe you could join the Inquisition and burn a few people at the stake.

As usual you are reading the words and missing the meaning - NOTHING WE CAN DO WILL BE FAIR AND JUST. FAIR AND JUST WENT OUT THE WINDOW BACK WHEN THE TREATIES WERE SIGNED, NOW WE JUST HAVE DIFFERENT CHOICES WHERE EITHER THE FIRST NATIONS AND/OR THEIR PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GET SCREWED. Is that clear enough for you, or should I find a bigger font to write it in?

You are right that we are not on the same page. On my page, I think about what you are saying and what I am saying, and on your page, you assume you already know what I am saying and that there is no reason to think about what you are saying because it is so "obvious" that any right-thinking person couldn't possibly disagree.

[TibHockeyPlayer]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Why would Cheifs blockade trains? Not enough sunflower oil?

HA!

I hope these native activists are thankful they are situated in Canada, not the US. In the states a guy just got 13 years in prison after being decaired an "eco-terrorist".

http://www.casperstartribune.net/art...e3007c9bac.txt


I see native blockades as very similar to extremist enviornmental activisim. It draws attention to their complaints, but it also gives law enforcement an excuse to crack down - even if a protest is peaceful.

Plus it ticks the majority of the population off...

I don't know about you, but this is their land originally. I've always had a soft place in my heart for oppressed people, and those who have been colonised. However, if one were to be subjugated to a colonial master, being part of Canada (the greatest country in the world) is your best bet in getting a fair shake.

Think of the Scottish, the Irish, the Tibetans, great civilizations that have fallen. ahhh, go natives!

[TibHockeyPlayer]

Do something about it instead of telling us that our grandfathers grandfathers stole their land. Get over it already. They need to try to fix themselves. The govt, like most of the canadian population is sick and tired of the whining about what our ancestors did.

Wow, your sick! I can tell you that I feel what the natives feel, as my people have been colonised as well, and we've heard that exact kind of vitriolic spew before. Giving free classes and the like does not justify taking over someones land and subjugating their people. In any case, the past is the past (we have to concentrate on the future to solve our problems), but never tell a proud people to get over it already when referring to their colonization! Unbelievable racism even today!!!!!!!

[TibHockeyPlayer]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I think we should move you to N. Sask. or AB and take your home away.

Couldn't have said it better myself Vulcan, kudos!

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by jammies

As usual you are reading the words and missing the meaning - NOTHING WE CAN DO WILL BE FAIR AND JUST. FAIR AND JUST WENT OUT THE WINDOW BACK WHEN THE TREATIES WERE SIGNED, NOW WE JUST HAVE DIFFERENT CHOICES WHERE EITHER THE FIRST NATIONS AND/OR THEIR PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GET SCREWED. Is that clear enough for you, or should I find a bigger font to write it in?

You are right that we are not on the same page. On my page, I think about what you are saying and what I am saying, and on your page, you assume you already know what I am saying and that there is no reason to think about what you are saying because it is so "obvious" that any right-thinking person couldn't possibly disagree.

I agree the past is the past if that is what you are saying. Your answer is to continue screwing them around by more coqueyed solutions that have only made things worse, me I like to think I'm a little above that by making the effort to approach each human being as equal and treating everyone fairly each day. That you have had a peripheral experience on one reserve, doesn't make you and expert. Go visit a few more, get to know the people if you can. This is a hard thing to do thou as they like their privacy and there is nothing wrong with that and they usually don't take to people who don't respect them.

[SeeGeeWhy]

In realted news, Trains threaten blockade pulverization on June 29th.


Why?


BECAUSE THEY'RE FRICKEN TRAINS!

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by TibHockeyPlayer

I don't know about you, but this is their land originally. I've always had a soft place in my heart for oppressed people, and those who have been colonised. However, if one were to be subjugated to a colonial master, being part of Canada (the greatest country in the world) is your best bet in getting a fair shake.

Think of the Scottish, the Irish, the Tibetans, great civilizations that have fallen. ahhh, go natives!

I am not sure what to think about the whole "this was their land first" argument. They were taken over by a more powerful group, it has happened many times in the past, and will keep happening in the future - all over the world.

That said, Natives in Canada are in an absolutely desolute position. The South African Apartheid was built using the model of how Canada's government dealt with the Native population as a guide - that is scary stuff, and difficult to fight against. The whole system in place was a way to sweep Natives under the rug and hope that they died off - that they haven't shows to me how resilient those people truly are. It is a damn shame because I am sure that true Native culture was rich, beautiful and held a lot of lessons in terms of how to live and be at balance with Nature - something this world desperately needs right now. Too bad that culture has been all but basically killed.

It is truly Canada's dirty little secret. It is a huge problem and no one knows what to do about it.... so nothing gets done.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by TibHockeyPlayer

Couldn't have said it better myself Vulcan, kudos!

You know, it would be hard to believe that in the last 5000 years in North America, some aboriginal band didn't overrun some other aboriginal band, slaughtered men, enslaved the women and kept the land they were occupying forever without compensation.

Cowperson

[CaramonLS]

Vulcan, Rouge, Unibomber? I'm not hearing a lot in the way of solutions from your side of the fence.

But at least I think we can all agree here that the Status Quo isn't working, right?

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

You know, it would be hard to believe that in the last 5000 years in North America, some aboriginal band didn't overrun some other aboriginal band, slaughtered men, enslaved the women and kept the land they were occupying forever without compensation.

Cowperson

Your point? Just curious...how does that apply to this?

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Your point? Just curious...how does that apply to this?

Cow's referring to the fact that native bands didn't exactly peacefully co-exist before Europeans and that they too stole land from other natives. The big difference is that we provide at least some sort of compensation rather than the 'old way' of killing and/or enslaving conquered peoples.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Your point? Just curious...how does that apply to this?

I would have thought it as obvious. Conquer or be conquered is a time honoured human trait. Especially when population pressures start pushing cultures/nations outward.

Feeling sorry for a conquered people, many of whom spent their entire existances warring with and conquering eachother is a modern compulsion. It is also part of that guilt trip that I will not waste my time on.