Cheifs Threaten Train Blockades on June 29

[ken0042]

I think Burninator hit it right on the head where Transit wasn't looking to block Deerfoot, they were looking to do a regular strike. And like what happened with the Transit strike in 2001, when workers tried to block buses, the police got involved and IIRC threatened to jail people for J-walking. But the buses still ran.

(For those who weren't here in 2001- about 5 weeks into the 7 week strike management started running 3 bus routes with limited service.)

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by arsenal

And where does that motivation come from?

Does it matter?

Remember that those immigrants coming to Canada are just a small fraction of people in their situation from their homeland. The ones that are motivated take action to improve their situation, the others maintain the status quo.

And there are natives that are motivated who get out and better themselves but they aren't the majority. The majority gets left behind to create a negative impression to the outside world.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Does it matter?

Remember that those immigrants coming to Canada are just a small fraction of people in their situation from their homeland. The ones that are motivated take action to improve their situation, the others maintain the status quo.

And there are natives that are motivated who get out and better themselves but they aren't the majority. The majority gets left behind to create a negative impression to the outside world.

Yes it matters. That motivation has to come from the person. If the person is not motivated, then there is no point. Like i said, the only holding back the Indians from helping themselves to a better life, is themselves.

The motivation has to come from within, not an outside source.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I think we should take away all the whitemen's land, give them some money and just allow those still living in these homes to stay but after 99 years it all reverts to the Red Nation. That should solve this whiteman problem. Yeah, one time this system will have to end.

Treaties that institutionalize racism (what else do you call it when you treat people of different ethnicities differently IN LAW) are the problem. Therefore, the treaties must go, if we are to see an end to racism. You can argue over how they must go, but if you truly believe all people are should be equal, it is hypocrisy to perpetuate a system that promotes special status based on birth. Of course, if you are of the belief that special status should be proportionate to how "oppressed" a particular group's members are perceived to be, then certainly it makes sense to defend it; this idea, however, is racism of a different sort, yet no less repugnant.

Your suggestion of giving all the land back to the original owners would also end the system, however I am interested in exactly who will pay the compensation to the 29.5 million non-native people who will have to move under your plan. Certainly not the tribes, who apparently don't even have enough money for their own members. I guess all the cities and towns could be burnt down, the farms razed, the highways and streets torn up and the grass allowed to grow back over all of it, so that at the 99 year limit it would all be more or less back in the same shape it was originally taken over from, and thus no compensation owed, however I'm not really sure if that's really an attractive option for anyone.

There seems to a common misconception that there is always a "right" thing to do; in a case like this, there ARE no just ways to proceed, so the solution is to try to minimize the injustice. It is WRONG to segregate a race from the rest of the country, and whether or not those segregated have come to accept the free food thrown at them through the bars in their prisons, and whether or not the process of freedom involves pain, some day it must be done and putting that day off only offloads the problem onto the generations that will follow us.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by jammies

Treaties that institutionalize racism (what else do you call it when you treat people of different ethnicities differently IN LAW) are the problem. Therefore, the treaties must go, if we are to see an end to racism. You can argue over how they must go, but if you truly believe all people are should be equal, it is hypocrisy to perpetuate a system that promotes special status based on birth. Of course, if you are of the belief that special status should be proportionate to how "oppressed" a particular group's members are perceived to be, then certainly it makes sense to defend it; this idea, however, is racism of a different sort, yet no less repugnant.

Your suggestion of giving all the land back to the original owners would also end the system, however I am interested in exactly who will pay the compensation to the 29.5 million non-native people who will have to move under your plan. Certainly not the tribes, who apparently don't even have enough money for their own members. I guess all the cities and towns could be burnt down, the farms razed, the highways and streets torn up and the grass allowed to grow back over all of it, so that at the 99 year limit it would all be more or less back in the same shape it was originally taken over from, and thus no compensation owed, however I'm not really sure if that's really an attractive option for anyone.

There seems to a common misconception that there is always a "right" thing to do; in a case like this, there ARE no just ways to proceed, so the solution is to try to minimize the injustice. It is WRONG to segregate a race from the rest of the country, and whether or not those segregated have come to accept the free food thrown at them through the bars in their prisons, and whether or not the process of freedom involves pain, some day it must be done and putting that day off only offloads the problem onto the generations that will follow us.

Doesn't Quebec have different standards apllied to them from the government? Is that racism? That would go the same with anyone who lives in NWT or Yukon, they receive a northern living allowance that the rest of Canada does not recieve, that's racism?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Doesn't Quebec have different standards apllied to them from the government? Is that racism?

Is Quebec a race? Is everyone in the province a Francophone?

That would go the same with anyone who lives in NWT or Yukon, they receive a northern living allowance that the rest of Canada does not recieve, that's racism?

The "Yukonians" aren't a race of people. If I wanted to move to the NWT or Yukon, I could collect that incentive.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Is Quebec a race? Is everyone in the province a Francophone?



The "Yukonians" aren't a race of people. If I wanted to move to the NWT or Yukon, I could collect that incentive.

I was quoting what was said about different ethnicities, and yeah, i think that the Inuit people in the Yukon are of a different race, and i think that french speaking Quebecers are of a different ethnicity. And i think that both are treated differently by the government, aren't they?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by jammies

Treaties that institutionalize racism (what else do you call it when you treat people of different ethnicities differently IN LAW) are the problem. Therefore, the treaties must go, if we are to see an end to racism. You can argue over how they must go, but if you truly believe all people are should be equal, it is hypocrisy to perpetuate a system that promotes special status based on birth. Of course, if you are of the belief that special status should be proportionate to how "oppressed" a particular group's members are perceived to be, then certainly it makes sense to defend it; this idea, however, is racism of a different sort, yet no less repugnant.

Your suggestion of giving all the land back to the original owners would also end the system, however I am interested in exactly who will pay the compensation to the 29.5 million non-native people who will have to move under your plan. Certainly not the tribes, who apparently don't even have enough money for their own members. I guess all the cities and towns could be burnt down, the farms razed, the highways and streets torn up and the grass allowed to grow back over all of it, so that at the 99 year limit it would all be more or less back in the same shape it was originally taken over from, and thus no compensation owed, however I'm not really sure if that's really an attractive option for anyone.

There seems to a common misconception that there is always a "right" thing to do; in a case like this, there ARE no just ways to proceed, so the solution is to try to minimize the injustice. It is WRONG to segregate a race from the rest of the country, and whether or not those segregated have come to accept the free food thrown at them through the bars in their prisons, and whether or not the process of freedom involves pain, some day it must be done and putting that day off only offloads the problem onto the generations that will follow us.

Man, it just flew right over your head there. I don't think I'll bother anymore.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Man, it just flew right over your head there. I don't think I'll bother anymore.

I think it flew over your head, and probably will for a long time coming. I think what jammies is saying is absolutely correct. It is WRONG to treat one ethical group different from another. I am also part of a very small cultural minority, yet I have to 'work' to go to school, and 'work' to make my living. I don't get a free-ride all the way through. And if you'd take a closer look at people who learn to appreciate what they have, and appreciate its worth, and how hard they worked for it, you'd notice that such people are MUCH better off than those who have everything given to them from their childhood on.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

So he/she can come off the reserve to be looked down upon, fear riding the c-train because they will be stereotyped as drunks? Put yourself in their shoes and see how easy that would be.

Who said it would be easy? Change has to begin somewhere, and if they never take the first step, change will never happen.

Nothing changes if nothing changes.

[Azure]

And just to go back to a comment made about the Hutterites....while they(we) live in a segregated community, the only thing different from us, and the normal Canadian, is 'how' we pay our taxes. The Canadian government has designed a special constitution that applies to the Hutterites, that allows us too pay taxes as a colony, rather than individuals. We 'still' work for everything we have, and we still have to pay money to send our kids to university. Big difference from that, and being entitled to an education, or having such an attitude.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

That they had the land prior is irrelevant. We're here, we're not going away, and I will never endure a guilt trip for something "our people" did ten generations ago.

As for why natives are looked down upon: when was the last time you saw a sober native person in decent clothes on the c-train? People's perceptions are built by what they see, and what we don't see are a lot of native people who have integrated themselves into society.

The segregation maintained by natives themselves is their biggest enemy when it comes to how they are viewed by the rest of society. Race relations only improve when everyone has and makes positive contributions to eachother. Step off the reserve, step into society, and perceptions will change. It will take a long time, but they will change.

And opinions like this is the beginning of change that you talk about? In one sentence you are talking about all the drunk natives that you see on the train, the next you are saying that they need to step off the reserve, step into society and perceptions will change. Seems odd.

Talking about change is great, following through is another thing. When was the last time i saw a sober native on the c-train? Today. What you are saying can be spun around into this: I see Asian gangs in the news every second day, they are no good so i think that we shouldn't allow any of them into our country.

Is that a fair and just statement? That's the perception that i get in the news so it must be the truth, right?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Is that a fair and just statement? That's the perception that i get in the news so it must be the truth, right?

God... this conversation has gone so far over your head it isn't funny.

It is absolutely hilarious to see how you are agreeing with me without even realizing it.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

God... this conversation has gone so far over your head it isn't funny.

It is absolutely hilarious to see how you are agreeing with me without even realizing it.

How so, please explain that to me. You seem to be saying that everytime you see a Native person he/she is drunk, i call that racism and you deny being racist.

You then say that they need to come off the reserves in order to change the perception others have of them, i'm telling you that not everyone has the same perception of a Native person as you do. Would you agree so far?

So i'm telling you that maybe the change has to start with people like you, who see's only what they want to see or what they are told to see. I grew up next to a reserve in Calgary, played hockey with many natives and some liked to drink, some didn't, very similar to my friends of other races. Are you following along?

I'm not agreeing with you as the way that you portray yourself to me by what you have written is hardly something that i would even mildly agree with. You can say that what your saying isn't racist, it's the facts, but i will disagree with you while you continue to beleive it.

You have stereotyped Natives as being drunks, i haven't. Do you see me agreeing with you?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Man, it just flew right over your head there. I don't think I'll bother anymore.

I understand exactly what you were saying: "Emotional discourse that solves nothing yet makes us feel as if we are on the side of good and right, is far preferable to discussing workable solutions that will make us look like the bad guys."

As soon as you come up with YOUR ideas on what can be done to alleviate the situation, feel free to contribute. Otherwise, I'd agree you shouldn't bother anymore.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by jammies

I understand exactly what you were saying: "Emotional discourse that solves nothing yet makes us feel as if we are on the side of good and right, is far preferable to discussing workable solutions that will make us look like the bad guys."

As soon as you come up with YOUR ideas on what can be done to alleviate the situation, feel free to contribute. Otherwise, I'd agree you shouldn't bother anymore.

I know it's hard with your 'white man's burden' mentality to not come up with your solution too solve every other society's so called problems, but I already gave my thoughts about the natives situation but that flew past you too.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jammies

I understand exactly what you were saying: "Emotional discourse that solves nothing yet makes us feel as if we are on the side of good and right, is far preferable to discussing workable solutions that will make us look like the bad guys."

As soon as you come up with YOUR ideas on what can be done to alleviate the situation, feel free to contribute. Otherwise, I'd agree you shouldn't bother anymore.

I think he was suggesting the same plan as you were, and demonstrating (to me, anyway) how absurd and unfair it would be when you are on the receiving end of "the solution" you proposed. I didn't think it was any more emotional (or unworkable) than your post.

Breaking promises, imposing ultimatums, expelling people from their homes.. these are the things your are suggesting. Haven't we heard this story before? And call me crazy, but I think anyone who doesn't want to join a society that condones (or outright promotes) this kind of behaviour from its government is the smart one.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Doesn't Quebec have different standards apllied to them from the government? Is that racism? That would go the same with anyone who lives in NWT or Yukon, they receive a northern living allowance that the rest of Canada does not recieve, that's racism?

Quebec is a province, not an ethnicity, so the analogy is not exact. You can move to Quebec and become a Quebecer if you like, whereas last I checked, I can't move to the reserve and become a treaty Native. Nevertheless, Quebec should get no different treatment than any other province, but the problem there is not Quebec, it is the other provinces not acting like Quebec, and allowing the federal government to encroach upon their powers.

As far as the northern living allowance goes, that is a measure designed to make living and working in the North more attractive, no different than any other special tax zone set up by a government to encourage the economy in an area. Again, I can move up there any time and get the allowance, so the analogy fails.

Although Quebec might be a good example for an alternative way to end the reserve system - create an 11th province, give it a big chunk of northern Alberta/Saskatchewan (with plenty of resources to get an economy going), then trade the reserve lands on something like a 2/1 ratio for Crown lands in this new province, and give the people the chance to move there over time, with the old reserves again reverting to the government in a 99 year time frame. Just as Quebec has a distinct civil legal system, this province could be based on laws created by the First Nations. Just like any other province, anyone could move there, and anyone could move out, so over time they would integrate at least as well as Quebecers have (insert sarcastic joke here....).

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by jammies

Quebec is a province, not an ethnicity, so the analogy is not exact. You can move to Quebec and become a Quebecer if you like, whereas last I checked, I can't move to the reserve and become a treaty Native. Nevertheless, Quebec should get no different treatment than any other province, but the problem there is not Quebec, it is the other provinces not acting like Quebec, and allowing the federal government to encroach upon their powers.

As far as the northern living allowance goes, that is a measure designed to make living and working in the North more attractive, no different than any other special tax zone set up by a government to encourage the economy in an area. Again, I can move up there any time and get the allowance, so the analogy fails.

Although Quebec might be a good example for an alternative way to end the reserve system - create an 11th province, give it a big chunk of northern Alberta/Saskatchewan (with plenty of resources to get an economy going), then trade the reserve lands on something like a 2/1 ratio for Crown lands in this new province, and give the people the chance to move there over time, with the old reserves again reverting to the government in a 99 year time frame. Just as Quebec has a distinct civil legal system, this province could be based on laws created by the First Nations. Just like any other province, anyone could move there, and anyone could move out, so over time they would integrate at least as well as Quebecers have (insert sarcastic joke here....).

I think we should move you to N. Sask. or AB and take your home away.

[Bobblehead]

It has begun.

Hwy 2 in Ont has been blocked and a CN Line.