American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Itse]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You can believe that if you want, but the truth is that she's done nothing to distance herself from Biden's foreign policy and she's been openly praising war criminals like Dick Cheney.

She's squandered every chance she's been provided to moderate on Israel/Palestine.

This is classic Democrats getting high on their own farts and fumbling the ball at the 1-yard line. People have been telling them for the last two months that this is the one issue that could kill them in November, and they've continued to tell everyone it doesn't matter.

Hell, look at this thread. We have know-it-all posters like Lanny who were confident that this was so low on the list of priorities for American voters that she didn't need to do anything proactive about it.

It doesn't matter that it's low on the list of priorities for most voters. What matters is that it's the number one priority for enough of the voters whose votes she needs.

And in tried and true Democrat fashion they're now lecturing these voters instead of trying to get their votes. You have to campaign to the electorate that actually exists, not the one you want to exist.

These aren't mutually exclusive positions.

You can think that it's pure stupidity to think not voting for Harris is a meaningful protest instead of a possibly destructive move for muslims both in America and elsewhere. There can be some debate whether or not Trump is racist towards black people, but he is very openly racist against all shades of brown, and has already tried to outright ban muslims from even entering the country.

The target audience whose mind pro-Palestinians need to target is not Democratic leadership, but the US population in general.

But you can also think that it is what it is, and the Democrats need to accept the reality of what the electorate is.

In other news, the US elections really damage my faith in humanity.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Itse

These aren't mutually exclusive positions.

You can think that it's pure stupidity to think not voting for Harris is a meaningful protest instead of a possibly destructive move for muslims both in America and elsewhere. There can be some debate whether or not Trump is racist towards black people, but he is very openly racist against all shades of brown, and has already tried to outright ban muslims from even entering the country.

The target audience whose mind pro-Palestinians need to target is not Democratic leadership, but the US population in general.

But you can also think that it is what it is, and the Democrats need to accept the reality of what the electorate is.

In other news, the US elections really damage my faith in humanity.

Yeah, I'm not debating that. I think allowing Trump to grab power is categorically stupid. That said, I can understand why people who may have lost family members in Palestine might not feel super enthusiastic about voting for Harris.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Find it interesting that leftists are now finally tuning in. In 2016 all Trump voters were racist. In 2020 they were morons. Always some non-reflective answer as to why people don’t see the world they do.

Look at Obama. Out there this last few weeks scolding black men. Biden in 2020 saying you ain’t black if you vote Republican.

The part I hate to burst your bubble with is that its never one thing. This is a death of a thousand cuts. Arrogance, focusing on issues that don’t really matter to the electorate overall, and an overall oversell of what they will deliver. People are tired of it, and any clown that had a track record of economic competence is better than the current state.

Or Americans are just racist and dumb. Ya thats it.

Pretty rich considering Trump has never been within 3M votes of his opponent
also "economic competence" lol

I mean Trump is 1-3 in presidential elections and got over 3M less votes the time he "won"
lets not pretend this one is over either...hopefully 1-4 incoming

JD Vance himself called Trump Hitler...many republicans have said similar
Trump himself suggested republicans are dumb which is why he became one is his 70s to grab power

Maybe they are right?

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Stupid take is stupid. Hasan points a finger at Harris and asks, "what have you done to earn our vote?" but does not ask the same question of Trump. You have to be a ####ing idiot to not ask the same questions of both candidates, weigh their answers, and see which is actually better for your cause. The fact of the matter is these dip####s don't do that and instead focus on one and not realizing the repercussions of their own action in making a vote for Trump, or withholding their vote. It's insane, it's stupid, and it needs to stop.

Maybe people are not in the mood to weigh choices when they see 2000 pound bombs falling on kids and people being starved.

[Itse]

A

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, I'm not debating that. I think allowing Trump to grab power is categorically stupid. That said, I can understand why people who may have lost family members in Palestine might not feel super enthusiastic about voting for Harris.

Yeah US military support for Israel during the Palestinian genocide is simply indefensible, an absolutely horrid policy, and while I don't think that's a good reason to not vote in this presidential election and I think attacking Harris over it makes little sense, it's an understandable emotional reaction.

[nfotiu]

When I see houses enshrined with Trump flags and memorabilia featuring giant Israeli flags, I have a hard time believing that voting against Harris is going to help the Palestinians in any way.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

When I see houses enshrined with Trump flags and memorabilia featuring giant Israeli flags, I have a hard time believing that voting against Harris is going to help the Palestinians in any way.

Those people will likely just not vote.

Every election there are millions of people that don’t vote, and somehow, people just assume the outspoken ones were Dem voters that are just being stupid.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Maybe people are not in the mood to weigh choices when they see 2000 pound bombs falling on kids and people being starved.

Another dumb comment. The Israel-Palestine conflict is not an issue of concern for most voters in this election. The latest polling on that issue still shows staunch support for Israel over Palestine, so even if that issue were high on the list of issues people give a #### about it wouldn't stack up the way you think/hope. You're taking a minor issue for this cycle and thinking people care about it in the same way you do, which is nowhere close to reality. The vast majority of the population isn't thinking about the conflict in the Middle East and don't really care because there are other more important issues on their minds. Issues that have the appearance of impacting them directly are the issues that people care about in the United States. Foreign wars barely register at this point.

Now, when you get past the important issues on the table for this election - those being the economy, immigration, health care, women's rights, gun rights, crime, and racial/ethnic equality - you get to issues like foreign policy and climate change. Both important issues, but too complex for the average American to have a clue about. The average dude on the street doesn't understand how either issue impacts them directly so their attention to those issues is very limited. Not when they are told every day that they are hurting economically and immigrants are making their lives that much more difficult. What happens in another country as a result of American foreign policy doesn't really register.

If you really want to think about the issue though, maybe consider the alternatives. The Biden admin has limited the classes of munitions that are shipped to Israel. They are controlling what they can control. You may not think that is enough, but the United States is not turning its back on Israel, regardless of what it does. Limits on what munitions access Israel has is probably the best option you have at the moment. The alternative is the hawks that want to "unleash Bibi" and let him "finish the job." Is that the better alternative? Your whole line of reasoning is like voting for the Nazis because the Social Democratic Party wasn't doing enough to counter antisemitism in the leadup to WWII. Dumb reasoning that just hurts your cause.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Why? What is this based off of?

If Trump wins, America’s ####ed. I do agree with you that he’ll somehow figure out how to get his kids to succeed him though, I think little chance Vance takes over.

That democracy in the US is not as broken as democracy in Russia was at the time.

So faith in the structures that have been built will take longer to destroy and will require a little more lip service to traditions while breaking them down.

I’d note that you have been doomsday prophisizing more rapid decline then is occurring for quite a while.

[Paulie Walnuts]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1848064195335516312

They should make a special Donald McTitty

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Find it interesting that leftists are now finally tuning in. In 2016 all Trump voters were racist. In 2020 they were morons. Always some non-reflective answer as to why people don’t see the world they do.

Ironic comment; Trump supporters never seem willing to take a look in the mirror.

Look at Obama. Out there this last few weeks scolding black men. Biden in 2020 saying you ain’t black if you vote Republican.

You take Obama's words out of context, and make a big deal about one bad Biden soundbite from 4 years ago.

Yet you give Trump a pass on the many dehumanizing, alienating things he's said over the years.

This is why Trump supporters are generally frowned upon. They always play the victim card, claiming that Democrats are mean and arrogant toward them. But what they should instead do is get some self-awareness and be mindful of the double-standards they have.

Arrogance, focusing on issues that don’t really matter to the electorate overall,

Such as?

and an overall oversell of what they will deliver.

Interesting you bring this up, because it's always the Republicans blocking them from delivering more results for the American people. Yet you blame Democrats for the constant Republican obstruction.

People are tired of it, and any clown that had a track record of economic competence is better than the current state.

Trump inherited a great economy from Obama, whereas Biden inherited an economy devastated by a global pandemic. Biden couldn't cancel the Trump tax cuts for the rich, making it very hard to combat inflation.

By most metrics, the American economy is doing very well right now. Best recovery from the pandemic of any major country.

[TherapyforGlencross]

Originally Posted by GGG

That democracy in the US is not as broken as democracy in Russia was at the time.

So faith in the structures that have been built will take longer to destroy and will require a little more lip service to traditions while breaking them down.

I’d note that you have been doomsday prophisizing more rapid decline then is occurring for quite a while.

Having faith in institutional democratic structures is how we got here in the first place. It started off with Trump denying mail in ballots, followed by him calling Governers to overturn votes, which resulted in Oence having to emotionally accept election results, which resulted in January 6 calling for the hanging of Mike Pence. Breaking democratic structures. The structures in place saved the day, but it was close. And here’s the start of the intentional breaking of democratic norms.

We started with presidential immunity given by the courts. Now we have Trump openly bribing for votes (see Musk and his $1,000,000 donations a day), plans of mass deportations without due process, openly calling for prosecution of his enemies, which could very well transition into demonizing people who voted democrat, and it feels as if you’re brushing aside legitimate (and perhaps over the top, but understandable) concern for the destruction of democracy. Does it really matter how long it takes the democratic structures to fall if we’re already experiencing it, with little to no solution, even if Harris wins the election? The republicans are hell bent on restructuring the US government norms, regardless if Trump is in power or not. He’s just the best avenue for it. The party has been fully taken over by extremists unwilling to compromise in most situations. We’re already here. The link to strong democracy is gone. And now Republicans, aided by Trump, are salivating over breaking every chain of it.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Don't get him started on Seve Ballesteros...

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Another dumb comment. The Israel-Palestine conflict is not an issue of concern for most voters in this election. The latest polling on that issue still shows staunch support for Israel over Palestine, so even if that issue were high on the list of issues people give a #### about it wouldn't stack up the way you think/hope. You're taking a minor issue for this cycle and thinking people care about it in the same way you do, which is nowhere close to reality. The vast majority of the population isn't thinking about the conflict in the Middle East and don't really care because there are other more important issues on their minds. Issues that have the appearance of impacting them directly are the issues that people care about in the United States. Foreign wars barely register at this point.

Now, when you get past the important issues on the table for this election - those being the economy, immigration, health care, women's rights, gun rights, crime, and racial/ethnic equality - you get to issues like foreign policy and climate change. Both important issues, but too complex for the average American to have a clue about. The average dude on the street doesn't understand how either issue impacts them directly so their attention to those issues is very limited. Not when they are told every day that they are hurting economically and immigrants are making their lives that much more difficult. What happens in another country as a result of American foreign policy doesn't really register.

If you really want to think about the issue though, maybe consider the alternatives. The Biden admin has limited the classes of munitions that are shipped to Israel. They are controlling what they can control. You may not think that is enough, but the United States is not turning its back on Israel, regardless of what it does. Limits on what munitions access Israel has is probably the best option you have at the moment. The alternative is the hawks that want to "unleash Bibi" and let him "finish the job." Is that the better alternative? Your whole line of reasoning is like voting for the Nazis because the Social Democratic Party wasn't doing enough to counter antisemitism in the leadup to WWII. Dumb reasoning that just hurts your cause.

What's dumb is you not realizing that this is a main issue for many in a crucial state like Michigan which can cost her the election.

[InternationalVillager]

Kamala Harris is going to win.

Even Florida is going to be close. I wouldn't believe the polls.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I don’t know. Hard to trust. The morons voted him in 2016 and another 70 million plus voted for him in 2020.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

Kamala Harris is going to win.

Even Florida is going to be close. I wouldn't believe the polls.

You can make some good money in the betting markets based on your confidence.

[Sylvanfan]

The issue appears to be that Democrats that don't like Harris are more inclined to not vote or vote for a third party to show their displeasure over one issue. Which in a two party system might as well be a vote for the Republicans. The Repulicans might not like their guy, but still come home to Mom and Dad rather than not vote.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

What's dumb is you not realizing that this is a main issue for many in a crucial state like Michigan which can cost her the election.

It's NOT the main issue. The economy, immigration, and abortion are the main issues. The Middle East is a distant 4th and only that high because of a very noisy minority group. The demographics of the state of Michigan and voters look like this.

White: 75.73%
Black or African American: 13.56%
Two or more races: 5.4%
Asian: 3.26%
Other race: 1.57% (Arabs fall in this group)
Native American: 0.45%
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 0.03%

This is a very tight election, so those Arab voters could have an impact on the outcome of the election, just like any voting block, especially if they do something incredibly stupid and vote for a candidate who would be worse for their cause than the one they claim to have an axe to grind. It would be the epitome of stupid to not understand the gravity of this vote.

But if you want to make this an election based on a issue that never changes, go ahead and be stupid and vote for Trump, because he WILL give the Israelis access to the heavy munitions the Biden admin is holding back, and then give Netanyahu the green light to complete the very genocide you believe to be happening. Worse, he will do exactly what he says and round up those Arab immigrants and remove them from the country, sending them bac k to the very war-torn areas they fled from. Yes, the Arab voters could have an impact in this election. An impact on their ability to stay in the country and be safe from the conditions they fled from. They may sway the election, but if they do, they will do the most harm to themselves. And THAT is ####ing stupid.

[FurnaceFace]

Edit: Lanny has given the answers while I was typing.