Israel declares war on Hamas

[Scroopy Noopers]

This constant argument of “so you’re okay with *something the person never said*” is getting really ####ing annoying.

[Hockeyguy15]

I don't know about you guys, but I have seen way too many clips of kids being killed in all of this regardless of your stance on this. It's really just crushing seeing that.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

You think I'm okay with Hamas murdering Israelis? That's preposterous. Of course it isn't okay. I'm equally not okay with Israelis murdering Palestinians. Murdering civilians isn't okay, okay? It's absurd that had to be clarified for you.


The land they picked is entirely based on religious reasons. You think it's a coincidence they ended up in the spot they revere in their holy book?

I know Jewish people needed a safe place after the holocaust (let alone before). I wish we offered them somewhere in North America or carved out half of Germany for them. Plunking them in a sh-t-hole desert smack dab in the centre of the middle east where people already live and where they're already vehemently hated was the dumbest spot ever that ensured a forever war for them. It's insane. The only reason it is where it is is because of religion and politics. The religion aspect I roll my eyes at. Sorry, it's stupid. The political side was cruel toward the Jewish people. It's an awful land there with no hope of peace, but works to the benefit of western nations to have a dependent ally violently defending friendly land for us with a terrible human cost.

Everybody had to get over how we got here? Dude. People in Gaza and the West Bank are not going to "get over it" so that's the most simplistic thing you could possibly say. Whatever solutions (I don't believe there are any; I think this experiment was always doomed to fail if we value all human lives on both sides as equal) you propose need to take into account the needs, rights and will of Palestinians, plus a little truth and reconciliation.

1. The land was picked mostly on historical reasons, rather than religious.

2. You have to get over it. Israel is there. 79% of it's population was born there and thus have a right to be there regardless of anything else. Recognize Israel, make peace with it and focus on building your own country.

[marsplasticeraser]

Originally Posted by Cappy

My understanding is the arab world loathes Palestinians, but they are merely a pawn in their goal to have the international community turn on Israel and brings them further to the goal of wiping Israel off the map.

Egyptians, Jordanians, Lebanese, Iranians, Iraqis, etc. they do not care one bit for Palestinians. In fact, seeing more dead Palestinian civilians on TV helps their goals more than anything.

Counterpoint from my own eyes in Jordan today: Large protests in support of Palestinians in Amman today. So much so I was strongly advised to not go downtown and then police closed all roads in and out of downtown.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

Britain never "owned" the land. Give me a break. And I don't know this for sure but I suspect there wasn't much of a central land ownership registry in 1948, so ownership is a much more nebulous concept than you're making it. If a person had a family homestead they'd inhabited for 100 years, that's pretty much "ownership" in my books.

Palestine was under British mandate. Before it was ottomans empire. Earlier it was Khalifat, Byzantine, Romans, Israel. Palestinians never ever had their own independent country.

What you are trying to say is that Israel is not a legit state. Like what Putin says about Ukraine.

Trying to take back the land you lived at 80 years ago is archaic and should die. This mindset, not religion, is the root of the evil.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

Counterpoint from my own eyes in Jordan today: Large protests in support of Palestinians in Amman today. So much so I was strongly advised to not go downtown and then police closed all roads in and out of downtown.

A lot of the common people in Arab countries support the cause of the Palestinians. That doesn’t mean they want them moving to their own countries. And their governments certainly don’t, because Palestinian refugees have a history of starting civil wars and carrying out terrorism.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's over a 1000 dead, but those numbers include militants. Israel has destroyed thousands of buildings. If there was no warnings or direct targeting of civilians occurring, the casualties would be in the tens of thousands. Close to a half a million people have already left the North part of the Gaza Strip.

That’s why I said over 1000, as that still leaves hundreds in the death total for militants and ignores the number of militants already killed in Israel. Almost 1000 alone have been women and children. Over 100,000 people have been displaced by the bombings of homes and refugee camps, and thousands and thousands are at risk due to the lack of medical care and water available.

That Israel could kill thousands more is not justification, nor does it make it less of a tragedy.

[RoadGame]

https://youtu.be/Azs7As3MYFU?si=_byajiBm6D_96QAk

I didn't know about the dynamic of promises made for troops raised in WWI. As with anything in this conflict it's probably an oversimplification, missing nuance, etc. but incremental learning is still learning, and these days I find it more helpful to read and listen than argue.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

You think I'm okay with Hamas murdering Israelis? That's preposterous. Of course it isn't okay. I'm equally not okay with Israelis murdering Palestinians. Murdering civilians isn't okay, okay? It's absurd that had to be clarified for you.


The land they picked is entirely based on religious reasons. You think it's a coincidence they ended up in the spot they revere in their holy book?

I know Jewish people needed a safe place after the holocaust (let alone before). I wish we offered them somewhere in North America or carved out half of Germany for them. Plunking them in a sh-t-hole desert smack dab in the centre of the middle east where people already live and where they're already vehemently hated was the dumbest spot ever that ensured a forever war for them. It's insane. The only reason it is where it is is because of religion and politics. The religion aspect I roll my eyes at. Sorry, it's stupid. The political side was cruel toward the Jewish people. It's an awful land there with no hope of peace, but works to the benefit of western nations to have a dependent ally violently defending friendly land for us with a terrible human cost.

Everybody had to get over how we got here? Dude. People in Gaza and the West Bank are not going to "get over it" so that's the most simplistic thing you could possibly say. Whatever solutions (I don't believe there are any; I think this experiment was always doomed to fail if we value all human lives on both sides as equal) you propose need to take into account the needs, rights and will of Palestinians, plus a little truth and reconciliation.

The initial Zionists were not religious. It began as a nationalist secular movement. Israel was chosen as the site, because that's where the Jewish ancestors came from.

Jews had also attempted to set up states in that land many times prior to this successful attempt. The previous attempt was in 1660, when a state was declared in the Jewish cities of Safed and Tiberius. That population was decimated by Muslim raiders.

Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since the 1830s, despite major restrictions on Jewish residents living there put in place by the Ottoman Empire. The Jews there legally purchased the land they were on.

So looking at the structure of the land, while only Muslims controlled it and put major restrictions on Jews living there, and then stating that is the historically justifiable way it should be for all of time is a bit much.

Others have stated that being on the land for 100 years amounts to ownership. Jerusalem has now had a Jewish majority for 200 years, once again, despite previous restrictions preventing a Jewish majority prior to then.

Like many of the issues in the middle east, it's just not that black and white.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Pointman

1. The land was picked mostly on historical reasons, rather than religious.

2. You have to get over it. Israel is there. 73% of it's population was born there and thus have a right to be there regardless of anything else. Recognize Israel, make peace with it and focus on building your own country.

Hey, if you can get Hamas to make peace with Israel, be my guest. If you can't, then I guess have fun being in a war with your neighbours forever.

If I put myself in the mind of a Palestinian for a second, though, I might see your points as suuuuuuper biased. Like, are you seriously telling two million people in Gaza to 'get over it' and accept that Israel calls the shots on how you and everyone you'll ever know and love lives this one life we get on earth. And to 'get over' that your life will totally suck because you live in a giant crappy prison?

Yeah, until you can empathize with what the creation of modern Israel has meant for the other people in the immediate area I don't see how you'll ever get to a solution. Note, I don't think there is a solution that will work for the area. This whole project wasn't built on a stable foundation so it can't work.

As for 73% of Israelis being born there...yeah I have a ton of sympathy for them. They, too, are pawns (or descendents of pawns) that were placed there like in a game of risk where their chance to prosper is always in jeopardy and in need of external support. I understand it's their home. I wouldn't want to leave if I were them, either.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

That’s why I said over 1000, as that still leaves hundreds in the death total for militants and ignores the number of militants already killed in Israel. Almost 1000 alone have been women and children. Over 100,000 people have been displaced by the bombings of homes and refugee camps, and thousands and thousands are at risk due to the lack of medical care and water available.

That Israel could kill thousands more is not justification, nor does it make it less of a tragedy.

It's horrible. This is what happen when you can't let things go. There are millions of examples of lands changing ownership throughout history. Including Arabian conquest of Palestine. First nations are not trying to get North America back. Or South America. Maori are not revolting in New Zealand. Celts are not trying to expell Angles back into Denmark. Let it go.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Hey, if you can get Hamas to make peace with Israel, be my guest. If you can't, then I guess have fun being in a war with your neighbours forever.

If I put myself in the mind of a Palestinian for a second, though, I might see your points as suuuuuuper biased. Like, are you seriously telling two million people in Gaza to 'get over it' and accept that Israel calls the shots on how you and everyone you'll ever know and love lives this one life we get on earth. And to 'get over' that your life will totally suck because you live in a giant crappy prison?

Yeah, until you can empathize with what the creation of modern Israel has meant for the other people in the immediate area I don't see how you'll ever get to a solution. Note, I don't think there is a solution that will work for the area. This whole project wasn't built on a stable foundation so it can't work.

As for 73% of Israelis being born there...yeah I have a ton of sympathy for them. They, too, are pawns (or descendents of pawns) that were placed there like in a game of risk where their chance to prosper is always in jeopardy and in need of external support. I understand it's their home. I wouldn't want to leave if I were them, either.

Gazans need to accept that Israel exists and no longer pursue it's total destruction. Then they can just build their own country. Israel has no interest in governing, annexing or in any other way "calling shots" in Gaza.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

It's horrible. This is what happen when you can't let things go. There are millions of examples of lands changing ownership throughout history. Including Arabian conquest of Palestine. First nations are not trying to get North America back. Or South America. Maori are not revolting in New Zealand. Celts are not trying to expell Angles back into Denmark. Let it go.

Who are you even talking to at this point?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Pointman

It's horrible. This is what happen when you can't let things go. There are millions of examples of lands changing ownership throughout history. Including Arabian conquest of Palestine. First nations are not trying to get North America back. Or South America. Maori are not revolting in New Zealand. Celts are not trying to expell Angles back into Denmark. Let it go.

I guess they're not willing to let it go, yet. I agree with you, though. It would make things easier for all - and better for the Palestinians (and Israelis, of course) - if they would make peace and move forward.

I suppose the tensions are still fresh enough that your "let it go" mantra would probably sound really patronizing to people in the area, though. I imagine it would be similar to telling Ukrainians to "let it go" while currently in an active war.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Hey, if you can get Hamas to make peace with Israel, be my guest. If you can't, then I guess have fun being in a war with your neighbours forever.

If I put myself in the mind of a Palestinian for a second, though, I might see your points as suuuuuuper biased. Like, are you seriously telling two million people in Gaza to 'get over it' and accept that Israel calls the shots on how you and everyone you'll ever know and love lives this one life we get on earth. And to 'get over' that your life will totally suck because you live in a giant crappy prison?

Yeah, until you can empathize with what the creation of modern Israel has meant for the other people in the immediate area I don't see how you'll ever get to a solution. Note, I don't think there is a solution that will work for the area. This whole project wasn't built on a stable foundation so it can't work.

As for 73% of Israelis being born there...yeah I have a ton of sympathy for them. They, too, are pawns (or descendents of pawns) that were placed there like in a game of risk where their chance to prosper is always in jeopardy and in need of external support. I understand it's their home. I wouldn't want to leave if I were them, either.

I think there should be a discussion as to why the conditions in Gaza deteriorated to this level. A big part of it is having Hamas run the place, and Hamas using most of the funds and materials sent to Gaza for military purposes.

A prosperous Gaza would only benefit Israel. The constant attempts to explode Israeli busses made it into a prison. It was open in the early 2000s and in the 90s.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Pointman

They established a state based on UN resolution and the decision of owner of the lands, that is British Empire. Palestinians never owned the lands to begin with, making "stealing" impossible.

The Brittish had a mandate set up after the fall of the Ottoman empire. It was essentially supposed to only be a temporary administration and then freedom for the local population in return for their help in defeating the Ottoman Empire.

I think a nuanced part of this all that doesn't get discussed enough is also the feeling of betrayal from the arabs towards Brittain and by extension the West. There's also the feeling of betrayal from Turks towards the Arabs because of helping to break up their empire.

[Manhattanboy]

Lots of discussions among parents today whether to keep their kids home from schools or university campuses.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Lots of discussions among parents today whether to keep their kids home from schools or university campuses.

Yeah Universities like York's student Union and UTM didn't help that situation with their press releases.


As well seeing pictures of police command centers and patrols in Jewish based neighbourhoods.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I guess they're not willing to let it go, yet. I agree with you, though. It would make things easier for all - and better for the Palestinians (and Israelis, of course) - if they would make peace and move forward.

I suppose the tensions are still fresh enough that your "let it go" mantra would probably sound really patronizing to people in the area, though. I imagine it would be similar to telling Ukrainians to "let it go" while currently in an active war.

It's Russia, not Ukraine, that is trying to get back the land, that was originally theirs. Much like Hamas, Russia, or at least it's government, hates the very fact that Ukraine exists. Russians believe that Ukrainian lands are theirs and they were stolen from them by a western plot, that resulted in the fall of USSR. Russian-Ukranian war is another example of an aggression that happened because a country wants to get back the land that they owned at certain, arbitrary picked point in history. This mindset should die.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

The Brittish had a mandate set up after the fall of the Ottoman empire. It was essentially supposed to only be a temporary administration and then freedom for the local population in return for their help in defeating the Ottoman Empire.

I think a nuanced part of this all that doesn't get discussed enough is also the feeling of betrayal from the arabs towards Brittain and by extension the West. There's also the feeling of betrayal from Turks towards the Arabs because of helping to break up their empire.

This is correct. Similarly, Russians feel that they were betrayed by the west and lost Ukraine, that is actually motherland of Russia. And Kyiv is original capital of Russia. Point is, the whole idea of trying to rollback an ownership change because you feel it was unfair needs to die. If it helps, the way Arabs conquered Palestine at the first place was also against the will of previous inhabitants.