2023/2024 Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread

[Bongsong]

Originally Posted by Sec214

Haha… I wish I had something for you guys but ya’ll seem to have enough to talk about, carry on…

Noooooo don't carry on I need substance

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

Ya, except the example you used is a very poor one. Only Tkachuk ended up being a top tier player at his position. While I liked both Monahan and Bennett, neither were close to being top tier players at their positions. That leaves a top tier undrafted d-man (Giordano), a 4th round top tier LW Gaudreau, and a 6th overall top tier LW\RW Tkachuk. Then you have a great trade, bringing in Hanifin and Lindholm.

In his first few years Monahan was absolutely looking like a top tier first line player. Unfortunately his injuries caught up with him. Doesn't change the fact that he was a really good pick at #6 overall, and initially was on a trajectory to being a really good player long term.

Bennett was whatever, but I'm not suggesting every pick is a home run. I'm suggesting you deliberately give yourself the highest odds of landing franchise changing players. Or I guess you could keep praying for miracles, like the Flames and some fans keep doing.

[NegativeSpace]

I recall some of the rebuild people are here a few years back were talking about LA the same way that they are talking about Buffalo now. Now, LA's core is mostly built around the same veterans and players they have acquired through trades or free agency. There are many ways to build a team - we will see if LA's model works.



I was positive on Buffalo's progress last summer and think that they are turning it around, which is good for the league as Buffalo is a good market. They still have a tough division to make ground in. Toronto and Tampa are locks. Buffalo was close to taking out Florida last year, so they could supplant them. Boston is a wild card, but they still have a good defence and goaltending. This year is probably the first year that there may be some legitimate spots open in that division for a long time. Tough for up and coming teams to be anything but a wild card in that division.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Bongsong

Noooooo don't carry on I need substance

He is not kidding, it is really quiet out there. Maybe things pick up this week.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Why were the Flames any good at all from 2017 to 2022? Did you respect the Flames prior to that, because they actually did deliberately rebuild.
They ended the Iginla era in 2013, traded away most of the remaining vets, and ended up getting some of their highest draft picks ever in the following years (Bennett, Monahan, Tkachuck) at least 2/3 of those were foundational reasons for their change in fortunes. This is the key -- these weren't fluke draft picks from the mid to late first round, they were top 10 picks that were projected to be franchise changing --- and 2/3 were.

It was only 2 years after trading Iginla that they won a round and people were getting excited about the young nucleus of players.

Rebuilding does not mean 12 years of garbage like Buffalo. But you have to swallow a bitter pill for a few years just to get those really top end draft picks. The Flames continuing to pick mid draft is highly unlikely to yield those results.

I see a huge difference in moving assets before they expire (asset management) and full tank mode.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I see a huge difference in moving assets before they expire (asset management) and full tank mode.

Call it what you want. They moved on from veteran players into a period of poor competitiveness in order to restock the cupboards and build up a new project. Not much difference.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Call it what you want. They moved on from veteran players into a period of poor competitiveness in order to restock the cupboards and build up a new project. Not much difference.

What exactly do you think we disagree on?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What exactly do you think we disagree on?

It seems like you think the Flames (or any team) can somehow remain competitive and stock up on the next wave of talent without suffering some degree or period of suffering (ie. Not very competitive).

I just don't see how you land the truly franchise changing players without accepting that period of suffering and getting to the draft picks with the highest probability of doing that.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

There is no rule. That's pretty much been proven already.

Rule 1) The best odds of getting elite talent is drafting them high up
Rule 2) The best odds of winning the cup are to have elite talent
Rule 3) Nothing is guaranteed, but probability is a real thing

There are rules.

We know the Flames don't want to do this now, and it's a fair argument to say they shouldn't because of their committed contracts, but the rules remain the same.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think it will play out as follows:
- They Flames will try to remain competitive for the next 3 years.
- After that they will be dragged into more of a re-build even if they don't call it that.
- They will have some expensive players still under contract but as the cap rises some of them may be moveable. If not, they will still not be a great team.

Basically I see it no too differently than what has played out with San Jose over the last 5-7 years.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

Ya, except the example you used is a very poor one. Only Tkachuk ended up being a top tier player at his position. While I liked both Monahan and Bennett, neither were close to being top tier players at their positions. That leaves a top tier undrafted d-man (Giordano), a 4th round top tier LW Gaudreau, and a 6th overall top tier LW\RW Tkachuk. Then you have a great trade, bringing in Hanifin and Lindholm.

What if the Flames land Draisaitl instead of Bennett? That would have completely altered the trajectory of the team. Luck is required with top picks, later picks, trades, etc. I don't get this line of thinking that some top picks bust therefore what? You don't want them? Most later round picks bust too yet you have more confidence that youll build a contender that way? To me that's flawed logic.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Gilmour had a family and child care issues.

Savard was hated by the coach.

I don’t remember either player being subject to a deadline.

Trouble getting babysitters?

There was no deadline and that was the problem. Those trades were rushed and mismanaged due to what seems to be personal reasons rather than an opportunity to make a good trade to improve the team.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think it will play out as follows:
- They Flames will try to remain competitive for the next 3 years.
- After that they will be dragged into more of a re-build even if they don't call it that.
- They will have some expensive players still under contract but as the cap rises some of them may be moveable. If not, they will still not be a great team.

Basically I see it no too differently than what has played out with San Jose over the last 5-7 years.

This is probably very likely and very depressing lol.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Igottago

It seems like you think the Flames (or any team) can somehow remain competitive and stock up on the next wave of talent without suffering some degree or period of suffering (ie. Not very competitive).

I just don't see how you land the truly franchise changing players without accepting that period of suffering and getting to the draft picks with the highest probability of doing that.

My thought is you don't have to pick either lane.

Make individual player signing decisions independently.

Tighten the controls on asset management.

Don't use futures to prop up an average team.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think it will play out as follows:
- They Flames will try to remain competitive for the next 3 years.
- After that they will be dragged into more of a re-build even if they don't call it that.
- They will have some expensive players still under contract but as the cap rises some of them may be moveable. If not, they will still not be a great team.

Basically I see it no too differently than what has played out with San Jose over the last 5-7 years.

That is how I see it too. Make the playoffs once between 24-26. Miss the playoffs for the rest of the decade. Hopefully be ready to go in 2031.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Hackey

What if the Flames land Draisaitl instead of Bennett? That would have completely altered the trajectory of the team. Luck is required with top picks, later picks, trades, etc. I don't get this line of thinking that some top picks bust therefore what? You don't want them? Most later round picks bust too yet you have more confidence that youll build a contender that way? To me that's flawed logic.

The argument against it for me is:
A) I still think this team can be very good and I want to see what the new collection of players can do.
B) There is no guarantee you're going to be picking in the top 3, therefore probably making for a very long rebuild.



Line of thinking? Has anyone here stated they don't want top picks? No, it's how you have to get them and the long term risk it involves. The rebuild crowd makes it seem like it's "just that easy". Just sell your top guys and you're on the road to recovery. You mentioned luck, well it also takes lots of special kind of "luck" to get a top pick. So much so, we've never done it. Not even after we sold off our team in the 90's.

[Macho0978]

I don’t see it as the same as San Jose. Who have they picked up that shows they are going all in to win now? They haven’t traded much away sure but I bet Hanifin moves before the season.

They are leaving tons of room for Ruzicka, Deuhr, Pelletier, zary, coronato, wolf. This team will be young and it could be a great young team.

Or the kids just aren’t ready yet and we could be drafting high in next draft.

Going all in with this much youth is win win. Even if the finish just outside the playoffs the kids played well enough and we more than likely move on from guys like Backlund and Tanev and get even younger.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Provide examples of outright rebuilds that have only taken 2-3 years please

Without searching, Boston comes to mind. I remember them bottoming-out, selling some players, drafting high, and rebounding. Well-managed team.

https://champsorchumps.us/team/nhl/boston-bruins

Now, if your definition of a rebuild is scorched earth, I won't even bother to even think of it since it is probably zero. My point is that you don't have to do scorched earth if you are managing a team properly. You can most certainly do a 2-3 year rebuild, or if things aren't too dire, a 1-2 year retool to reset your team. When you don't do that, and you keep trying to compete and flail at it, you end up falling ass-backwards into a scorched earth rebuild unless you are a market that attracts UFAs on discounts to make up for your poor decisions. It is becoming more and more of a young man's league where young players are more ready to play in the NHL than ever before.

[Jiri Hrdina]

You used the phrase out right rebuild. I don’t think that’s what Boston did at all

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Igottago

In his first few years Monahan was absolutely looking like a top tier first line player. Unfortunately his injuries caught up with him. Doesn't change the fact that he was a really good pick at #6 overall, and initially was on a trajectory to being a really good player long term.

Bennett was whatever, but I'm not suggesting every pick is a home run. I'm suggesting you deliberately give yourself the highest odds of landing franchise changing players. Or I guess you could keep praying for miracles, like the Flames and some fans keep doing.

I mean I never seen him as a top tier 1st line player. Do you see Lindholm as a top tier 1st line player? Because he's better then Monahan was.