[News] Darryl Sutter out as Head Coach. Maloney presser at 11:30 AM MT

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Reminds me of the Gulutzan story where he offered everyone beer on the train ride. We all gloss over that Gulutzan took the beer away initially.

I had no idea.

[Azure]

The thing about a toxic culture is that people don't actually WANT to try harder, be better, be supportive, work towards a solution, etc....and often times will actually work towards the exact opposite.

And there is really nothing you can do about it if you can't mediate the two sides and fix the problem. There is really not even a point in blaming one side over the other.

So if the team had a toxic environment, players won't try and the coaching staff will likely not want to work with the players either. A pretty vicious cycle.

It also explains why the same coach that basically got booted out from one team can go to another team and win Stanley Cups.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

They’re mostly in their 20s…. So. Guess.

I think that's exactly my point. Sounds like things were so bad this year under Sutter, they'd have to be to for the exit interviews to be that bad, so not saying the wrong choice was made.

But, I'm sure there is a lot of complaining from peeps in there early 20's about not being treated like grown men / pro's - and a lot of not acting like grown men / pro's that goes along with that.

Athletes today in that age group I think are far more disciplined than say Sutter would have observed himself when he was in the NHL and that age. Their training and fitness and dedication to the craft is at another level. But they are also just 20 year old kids (and more so now the NHL skews younger) - and yes I'm so old that I can shake my fist at the 20 year olds on my lawn.

It just has to be a tough gig coaching these days:

- Super high power athletes
- Many of them make so much money that the power dynamic is actually in reverse (not saying that's a bad thing) - the coach has less than the players.
- And yet at the same time, they are really just kids..............who will do stupid kid things, lots and need wrangling and shown how to be adults.

[bdubbs]

RE: that rating website, looks like a Reddit user found out who the author of Sutter's review was. Dan Carcillo.

https://imgur.com/a/iPCdAco

EDIT: The review of Mitch Love makes me really want him as our new head coach even more than before.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

This one sounds like it was written by a résumé coach...

From their website:

Once verified, Players and Coaches have the ability to anonymously leave ratings and reviews. Players can only leave ratings and reviews on their past and current coaches and agents, and Coaches can only leave ratings and reviews on their past and current players. The Sports Aux cross-references a players’ years played with the coaches on staff during those seasons, creating their unique coach list to rate and review. A similar process happens for verified coaches.

Once a review has been submitted it is sent to The Sports Aux Admin Panel where it is grammatically reviewed prior to posting.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Azure

The thing about a toxic culture is that people don't actually WANT to try harder, be better, be supportive, work towards a solution, etc....and often times will actually work towards the exact opposite.

And there is really nothing you can do about it if you can't mediate the two sides and fix the problem. There is really not even a point in blaming one side over the other.

So if the team had a toxic environment, players won't try and the coaching staff will likely not want to work with the players either. A pretty vicious cycle.

It also explains why the same coach that basically got booted out from one team can go to another team and win Stanley Cups.

And this logic also explains why sometimes a player can move from one team and go from bust to breakout. It's not always miss handling etc.. If the player has in their mind, they've been wronged (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly) they get into that vicious cycle themselves. Sometimes the only thing that breaks that, is a fresh start.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I don't think the Sutter situation is any different from most businesses as they transition between generations and the incredible lifestyle differences between them. Millennials and Gen Zers have very different perspectives on things than Boomers and have very different communication styles. Expectations are also in different worlds. What works for Boomers or considered okay behaviors is not acceptable for the others. Sutter is definitely old school and that is not going to fly with the younger folks. The mind games just aren't appreciated nor considered acceptable. There's an evolution that needs to take place with the old school types, or it's time for that group to pack it in.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I don't think the Sutter situation is any different from most businesses as they transition between generations and the incredible lifestyle differences between them. Millennials and Gen Zers have very different perspectives on things than Boomers and have very different communication styles. Expectations are also in different worlds. What works for Boomers or considered okay behaviors is not acceptable for the others. Sutter is definitely old school and that is not going to fly with the younger folks. The mind games just aren't appreciated nor considered acceptable. There's an evolution that needs to take place with the old school types, or it's time for that group to pack it in.

That's generalizing a bit. Take Rick Bowness for example who is 4 years older than Darryl. Is the way he called out the team after game 5 a generational communication problem? Is he calling out players in front of a team setting throughout the season? He's been confirmed for another season so it's not deemed toxic like it is here.

I think Sutter is just a very hard and demanding coach who motivates his team. If fine when you're winning (last year) and not fine when you're losing (this year)

[GullFoss]

I can understand the glass half full possibility, but Im somewhat skeptical of it. The media and team can spin this how they will, but to me this seems like the following:

1) team is not winning, not a great vibe when you're losing and expectations are high

2) Huby and Kadri want Sutter to adjust the systems and style to suit them and Sutter wants the players to adapt to suit his system.

3) Due to 1 and 2, other players in the dressing room also turn on the coach as the season progresses and frustrations mount

Everyone is focused on (1) and (3) and saying it wasn't working and the players didn't like the coach, which is fair. And with regards to (2) I understand you can't pick an $8m coach over $150m between two players.

But it rubs me the wrong way that the two franchise forwards couldn't play the system or didn't want to. Even after 82 games, they still hadn't mastered it. And when you talk about the Sutter shelf-life, that doesn't apply to Kadri and Huby - two of the three players most responsible for the failed season - because they were in their first season under Sutter.

So did the franchise do what it had to do? Yes. Especially if Huby and Kadri weren't going to adjust. Or couldn't adjust. Doing the same things over again (running with the same coach, system and players) and expecting different results is insanity, especially if no one was willing to adapt.

But to think it's a new day and believe that everything is rosy again is a bridge I cant cross today. There are huge question marks around the teams two highest paid players and they won't go away until they perform well under the system of a high quality coach.

It seems entirely plausible to me that the players in the dressing room and those in the organization (Maloney, etc) are just using Sutter as a scapegoat instead of honestly assessing their inability to play the system and the team's roster construction.

[AC]

The Sports Aux posted above is the creation of former Flame prospect Josh Healey.

Good idea for an app, allowing players to review coaches, agents, etc.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

It seems entirely plausible to me that the players in the dressing room and those in the organization (Maloney, etc) are just using Sutter as a scapegoat instead of honestly assessing their inability to play the system and the team's roster construction.

You fail to integrate long tenured players like Backlund and Lindholm into you argument. It's cherry picking to say it was just Huberdeau and Kadri that were the problems here. Clearly other players in the locker room felt exactly the same as they did. For Murray to eat that contract, the argument to fire Sutter likely went much further than those two players. Darry's your guy and that's fine but few people here are buying what you are selling.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by AC

The Sports Aux posted above is the creation of former Flame prospect Josh Healey.

Good idea for an app, allowing players to review coaches, agents, etc.

Now we need an app where fans can review their favourite team's owners.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

I can understand the glass half full possibility, but Im somewhat skeptical of it. The media and team can spin this how they will, but to me this seems like the following:

1) team is not winning, not a great vibe when you're losing and expectations are high

2) Huby and Kadri want Sutter to adjust the systems and style to suit them and Sutter wants the players to adapt to suit his system.

3) Due to 1 and 2, other players in the dressing room also turn on the coach as the season progresses and frustrations mount

Everyone is focused on (1) and (3) and saying it wasn't working and the players didn't like the coach, which is fair. And with regards to (2) I understand you can't pick an $8m coach over $150m between two players.

But it rubs me the wrong way that the two franchise forwards couldn't play the system or didn't want to. Even after 82 games, they still hadn't mastered it. And when you talk about the Sutter shelf-life, that doesn't apply to Kadri and Huby - two of the three players most responsible for the failed season - because they were in their first season under Sutter.

So did the franchise do what it had to do? Yes. Especially if Huby and Kadri weren't going to adjust. Or couldn't adjust. Doing the same things over again (running with the same coach, system and players) and expecting different results is insanity, especially if no one was willing to adapt.

But to think it's a new day and believe that everything is rosy again is a bridge I cant cross today. There are huge question marks around the teams two highest paid players and they won't go away until they perform well under the system of a high quality coach.

It seems entirely plausible to me that the players in the dressing room and those in the organization (Maloney, etc) are just using Sutter as a scapegoat instead of honestly assessing their inability to play the system and the team's roster construction.

It's just the inconsistency that I never understood. If players are mad and tanking, sure that's one thing. But going into Vegas and Winnipeg and crushing them and then losing to Anahiem, Chicago and Vancouver? Were the Flames throwing games?

[dustygoon]

To the lawyers on here: Hard to imagine Murr pays out Sutter's contract without an attempt to negotiate a termination/settlement.

What kind of misconduct clauses might be in a coach's contract that could cover what happened here? Seems realistic that we have a pattern of players complaining/saying they won't play/asking for trades, etc which is damaging to the business. Sounds like some cause.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It was both, those picking the player only or team only are using a pretty tight lense.

He played the most time up front between 2018-2021 (three seasons) with Mikael Backlund, Matthew Tkachuk was 4th on his most frequent list in that time frame.

The player didn't get it done with the opportunities given to him as well.

I don't think Neal and Jankowski did him any favours but he got long looks with other players as well.

This has been beaten to death.

A quick spot check on 2017-18

Bennett’s top ES line combo was Jankowski and Hathaway at 27 percent even strength time. Next was Janko and Jagr at just over 10 pct

Ferland had 71 pct ES time with 13 and 23. That’s a long look


He got 27 pct ES time as a W with Backs and Tkachuk in 2018-19. (Spoiler: he is a C)


2019-20? Top 5 combos

Bennett-Janko-Rieder (13 pct)
Bennett-Ryan-Looch
Bennett-Dube-Lucic
Bennett-Mang-Ryan
Bennett-Quine-Ryan (7 pct)

That’s not long looks.

Alan Quine shows up before either Backlund or Tkachuk

That’s a lost year of development that ultimately led to devaluing and losing an asset.


Either way, another case of ‘both sides, many sides’…. Sorry, no, it’s just not true. The org mishandled him, full stop

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

This has been beaten to death.

A quick spot check on 2017-18

Bennett’s top ES line combo was Jankowski and Hathaway at 27 percent even strength time. Next was Janko and Jagr at just over 10 pct

Ferland had 71 pct ES time with 13 and 23. That’s a long look


He got 27 pct ES time as a W with Backs and Tkachuk in 2018-19. (Spoiler: he is a C)


2019-20? Top 5 combos

Bennett-Janko-Rieder (13 pct)
Bennett-Ryan-Looch
Bennett-Dube-Lucic
Bennett-Mang-Ryan
Bennett-Quine-Ryan (7 pct)

That’s not long looks.

Alan Quine shows up before either Backlund or Tkachuk

That’s a lost year of development that ultimately led to devaluing and losing an asset.


Either way, another case of ‘both sides, many sides’…. Sorry, no, it’s just not true. The org mishandled him, full stop

My stats were from Natural Stat Trick ... not just pulled off the top of my head.

So no ... I'd say he was given looks and it didn't happen here. Should he have been given a longer look? I would say so. Were certain players death to anyone that played with them (Neal)? Absolutely.

Which is why I said both sides.

But When you play 500 minutes with Mikael Backlund in three seasons and don't get much done it's hard to avoid the mirror.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I wonder about the players that write these reviews, and if they are at all introspective? They may very well be. But I wonder how many of them that complain about things like, no food on the airplane (if that's true) and not being treated like grown men, also do things like get trashed the night before games / practices on road trips (or at home). Wondering if they're actually correlating the correct "why" behind some of their coaches behavior.

I want to be treated like professionals..........but do they all act like professionals?

It sounds like they are getting trashed in the dressing room in front of their peers by Darryl, like a drill sergeant bully. Lines up with that post-game interview with Tanev where he was pissed off saying "apparentely I'm a leader now and I let the team down" and Rhett Warnener telling stories about Sutter as well.

The modern coach will talk to a player in private and not try to push buttons by belittling players in front of their own team mates constantly.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You fail to integrate long tenured players like Backlund and Lindholm into you argument. It's cherry picking to say it was just Huberdeau and Kadri that were the problems here. Clearly other players in the locker room felt exactly the same as they did. For Murray to eat that contract, the argument to fire Sutter likely went much further than those two players. Darry's your guy and that's fine but few people here are buying what you are selling.

Yup. I like Darryl and posted plenty of times about not wanting him gone. I still don't think he was *the* problem. But when guys who have been through a couple coaches and especially a guy like Backlund who has given it all to this franchise raises an issue big enough that they're willing to move on if it's not solved? You listen, plain and simple.

I also think it's a complete rewrite to suggest that Huberdeau didn't want to adjust his game. He did, completely, and his individual stats suffered immensely for it because it's not the type of game he's successful at. He still did it. Saying he couldn't or didn't want to play the system is a lie, he could and he did, and it didn't work. Kadri... hard to say, he was a mess.

This developing conspiracy theory about Sutter being used as a scapegoat or this all secretly coming from the minds of two new players is just bizarre to me. There's no reason not to believe Maloney is being honest and plenty of smoke that suggests this was more than two players. If it was just two players, nobody would go through the effort of making up rumours about it being multiple players, coaches, training staff, etc. Let's not forget to use our heads a little bit here.

[JohnnyB]

With all the muck being thrown around about Sutter, who made the call to extend his contract?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by bdubbs

RE: that rating website, looks like a Reddit user found out who the author of Sutter's review was. Dan Carcillo.

https://imgur.com/a/iPCdAco

EDIT: The review of Mitch Love makes me really want him as our new head coach even more than before.

I read that comment too.

Dan Carcillo is an opinionated blowhard. Not saying his rating of Sutter is made up, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was embellished.

I'd be interested to see if there are more reviews of Sutter. Surely there are some positive ones - he basically made guys like Trevor Lewis multi-millionaires.