American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Prediction - if he gets arrested - there will be limited protests but nothing major. Most people have moved on as seen by the lack of interest around his re-election campaign.

He's still polling as a massive front runner in that party. There's still plenty of interest, just nobody showing up to his rallies...yet.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I did. It comes across as "Xenophobia is bad, but...". Knowing Fuzz's history, I'm certain that's not where he was going with it. I think wording on this topic can easily give the wrong impression.

It's certainly a minefield, and I had posted elsewhere that China(the government) is doing a disservice to Chinese people by making them the target of racism through their actions. I am able to separate the people from the actions of the govenrment, but it should be obvious by now that many are not, and it could easily be a rallying call against all Chinese people. Which is why the CCP should probably knock it off, though perhaps they don't really care? They have long term goals that don't take the needs of the individual into account.

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1637826603978838016

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Yoho

https://twitter.com/user/status/1637826603978838016

[Sliver]

A talking meatball!

[activeStick]

I mentioned it before, but things are going to get a lot worse for ordinary Chinese-looking people in the west everywhere as history tends to repeat itself.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1637593113870086144

Putting the fault at the government of a country for other people being racists towards that country's people, and not instead blaming ignorant racists for being racists is something I didn't think I'd read. Normal citizens with heritage from Israel being othered for what their government does on a daily basis to the Palestinians would be outrageous. Just like going after Joe Schmo for being a citizen of a country that came up with Abu Ghraib would be.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I mentioned it before, but things are going to get a lot worse for ordinary Chinese-looking people in the west everywhere as history tends to repeat itself.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1637593113870086144

Putting the fault at the government of a country for other people being racists towards that country's people, and not instead blaming ignorant racists for being racists is something I didn't think I'd read. Normal citizens with heritage from Israel being othered for what their government does on a daily basis to the Palestinians would be outrageous. Just like going after Joe Schmo for being a citizen of a country that came up with Abu Ghraib would be.

Really now, be reasonable. Of course the actual racists are a problem. The CCP are the ones pushing that direction though. I find the reactions in that news piece troubling, because they are suggesting the RCMP should not be investigating. Why? Because the investigations are the source driving the racism? That's ridiculous. Our RCMP should not be permitted to investigate something this serious, becuase it may cause racial issues?

I'm suggesting the CCP are making it worse by poking and prodding at our democracy, forcing us to react.

[Fuzz]

Oh, also "Normal citizens with heritage from Israel being othered for what their government does on a daily basis to the Palestinians would be outrageous."

Like, really? You haven't heard of antisemitism? Baffling point.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Oh, also "Normal citizens with heritage from Israel being othered for what their government does on a daily basis to the Palestinians would be outrageous."

Like, really? You haven't heard of antisemitism? Baffling point.

If the poster is Asian - I can see the concern. If I was concerned I might get attacked, abused or yelled at - I'd prefer not to have that not happen no matter who's at fault. And you're going to have more luck trying influencing the Canadian government than you are the Chinese government.

[JohnnyB]

How about just holding bigots accountable for being bigoted or acting in bigoted ways, regardless of whether it's sinophobia, antisemitism or targeted towards other groups?

I'm sure some would love to add "turning Americans/Canadians racist" to the list of things to blame China for, but the only ones responsible for bigotry are bigots themselves.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

How about just holding bigots accountable for being bigoted or acting in bigoted ways, regardless of whether it's sinophobia, antisemitism or targeted towards other groups?

I'm sure some would love to add "turning Americans/Canadians racist" to the list of things to blame China for, but the only ones responsible for bigotry are bigots themselves.

Now that we all agree racists are bad, is the RCMP investigation responsible for the racism towards Chinese Canadians, or is it the racists?

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1637848313755209728

[SportsJunky]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1637495209469542401

[SportsJunky]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1637859076960063489

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

https://twitter.com/user/status/1637859076960063489

Bannon having a quote of his own turned into artwork and displayed behind him is the most 21st century conservative move I've seen yet.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Oh, also "Normal citizens with heritage from Israel being othered for what their government does on a daily basis to the Palestinians would be outrageous."

Like, really? You haven't heard of antisemitism? Baffling point.

You are missing the point. I think everyone agrees that antisemitism is bad, and that it would also be wrong to say antisemitism in the US/Canada is Israel's fault.

Sinophobia is also bad, and it is wrong to say sinophobia in the US/Canada is China's fault.

You wrote regarding the situation of Chinese people that "China is making them the target of racism", thereby attributing blame for sinophobia to China instead of the sinophobes.

Do you not see what activeStick is taking issue with here?

You also then wrote "Of course the actual racists are a problem. The CCP are the ones pushing that direction though", and "they're forcing us to react", again attributing blame to China for making bigots be bigoted.

Surely, you can see the issue with describing things this way.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Now that we all agree racists are bad, is the RCMP investigation responsible for the racism towards Chinese Canadians, or is it the racists?

Did you watch the report? The lady interviewed never said there should be no investigation or that investigating is racist. She specifically said she hopes the RCMP can do a clear investigation.

She took issue with the announcement of the investigation without openness about why an investigation is being conducted. She also said she feels it is unfair to announce these investigations when other investigations go unannounced, and that the announcement and media focus brought on by the announcements are fostering distrust and suspicions. The racism she's alluding to is in how it is being publicly handled, not the investigation itself.

The guy they briefly interviewed said he believes the investigation is unfounded, so his reason given for opposition is that he says the organization has done nothing wrong.

So, there are multiple things at play. There are individual acts of discrimination experienced by the woman, there is the alleged discrimination on the part of the RCMP about how announcements were handled for these cases as compared to others, there is the treatment of cases in the media, and there is the allegation that the investigation is unfounded.

Nobody, in any of that, said the RCMP cannot or should not investigate in an impartial way.

Actually, given your response, I guess we now also kind of have the matter of people's words in the report being contorted in a way that ignores discrimination experienced by them and kind of makes it sound like they're just 'playing the race card' or something in opposition to a just and fair investigation, as though they're standing in the way of justice and the good of Canada. In fact, they said nothing of the kind.

[Fuzz]

It's pretty simple here. If the CCP wasn't antagonizing Canada and our political systems, there would be no reason for a spotlight to be turned on Chinese Canadians. Because the nature of humanity is such that there are always going to be some portion of racists, and becuase they do it in a way that makes it very hard to prosecute, avoiding inflammatory actions should be encouraged. CCP's actions are inflammatory, thus leading to the racists using the rope they have been given. I'm not saying it is good, justified, or anything like that, it's the reality of humanity. If you want to fix racism, go ahead, good luck with that. Until then, governments should probably do their best to avoid inflaming it. That does not mean the RCMP should not investigate when they see reason to.

As to the reason that they are saying it shouldn't be public, I don't know how many investigations are announced vs not, but this doesn't really seem unusual, and making citizens aware of these ASAP is probably a net benefit, to prevent Chinese Canadians from being manipulated by them.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...folo-1.6691240

Do you not see this as troubling that should be investigated? Or is it all slander?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Actually, given your response, I guess we now also kind of have the matter of people's words in the report being contorted in a way that ignores discrimination experienced by them and kind of makes it sound like they're just 'playing the race card' or something in opposition to a just and fair investigation, as though they're standing in the way of justice and the good of Canada. In fact, they said nothing of the kind.

I watched it and your post is - shock of all shocks - a dishonest attempt to twist the report in a manner that serves your perspective.

According to the report, she said that both the media reports and the RCMP investigation are causing racism. She then said the espionage cases themselves have caused her to feel "division". The second guy said his problem is that the investigation might cause people to wonder, about any normal asian-Canadian person walking down the street, whether they're under investigation by the RCMP.

So, yes, they did say "something of the kind". The quote in the headline itself that "the investigation is bringing fear to them" is an accurate characterization. Fuzz's response is apt.

[photon]

EDIT: Forgot the context:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1635385389828702209

https://twitter.com/user/status/1635973671155290112

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's pretty simple here. If the CCP wasn't antagonizing Canada and our political systems, there would be no reason for a spotlight to be turned on Chinese Canadians. Because the nature of humanity is such that there are always going to be some portion of racists, and becuase they do it in a way that makes it very hard to prosecute, avoiding inflammatory actions should be encouraged. CCP's actions are inflammatory, thus leading to the racists using the rope they have been given. I'm not saying it is good, justified, or anything like that, it's the reality of humanity. If you want to fix racism, go ahead, good luck with that. Until then, governments should probably do their best to avoid inflaming it. That does not mean the RCMP should not investigate when they see reason to.

Yikes...

How about, calling out and working to eliminate or reduce racism, and at the very least not contributing to it or dismissing people's experiences of it? That sound good?

Originally Posted by Fuzz

As to the reason that they are saying it shouldn't be public, I don't know how many investigations are announced vs not, but this doesn't really seem unusual, and making citizens aware of these ASAP is probably a net benefit, to prevent Chinese Canadians from being manipulated by them.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...folo-1.6691240

Do you not see this as troubling that should be investigated? Or is it all slander?

I don't know if it's unusual or not either. Why just make an assumption about it and give the benefit of the doubt one way over the other without knowing?

As for my views on whether or not potentially illegal activity should be investigated, I've consistently been clear on here that Canada should ensure Canadian laws are being followed and stop any illegal activity going on inside our borders. Pretty simple.