2021 Blue Jays Season Thread

[Kasi]

I can blame Montoyo for the Chatwood issue but you can’t complain about Stripling without realizing Matz was even better in game 2 and lost it super quick. Which is it did he leave Matz in too long or pull Stripling too fast? I don’t mind pulling pitchers after five today and I really don’t want to have pitchers constantly warming up. What doesn’t make much sense is keeping Chatwood in so long.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I imagine Montoyo went with his blue chip relievers in the first game today to lock down the series win.

Which is idiotic - they already had it.

Plus, if you overplay the 'series win', you are telling your team that 2 out of 3 is the goal. But #### that, when you've won the 1st one, and have the 2nd one in the bag, you have to have a killer instinct. You have to be gunning for the sweep.

You are never going to maintain pace with the Yankees and Red Sox if your attitude is 'series win' in that position

[Enoch Root]

Part of the manager's job is leader.

Another part is defining and setting the culture.

He completely shat the bed on those fronts today. (as he often does)

[flamingred89]

Originally Posted by Kasi

I can blame Montoyo for the Chatwood issue but you can’t complain about Stripling without realizing Matz was even better in game 2 and lost it super quick. Which is it did he leave Matz in too long or pull Stripling too fast? I don’t mind pulling pitchers after five today and I really don’t want to have pitchers constantly warming up. What doesn’t make much sense is keeping Chatwood in so long.

So wait, because Matz gave up some runs Stripling was going to too? A lot of assumptions there when you just don't know.

Today did a great job framing both sides to the arguments, so I guess your answer is going to come from what side of the fence you live on.

Imagine the scenario where Stripling didn't automatically blow it because he was facing the lineup for a 3rd time. A scenario where he is able to go an extra inning or *gasp* even finishing the game. Then in game 2 when Matz runs into trouble you have your best relievers, with swing and miss stuff, available when you need them most.

And why don't you want your relievers getting up and down to stay warm. That's pretty much their job and what you pay them for.

[transplant99]

"For us to be good. Chatwood needs to do the job," Blue Jays manager Charlie Montoyo said. "He needs to be the reliever that he has been. So you've got to give him the chance to regroup and do the job, get a double play ball or something. He just couldn't do it. That's two straight bad outings but we need him. That's a fact. He was our best reliever for the first two months and he just needs to get it back."

https://www.espn.com/mlb/recap?gameId=401331686

[Roof-Daddy]

If a guy sucks, he sucks. If he throws his stuff for strikes and gets hammered, so be it.

What I can't stand is when a guy has incredible stuff that is so hard for hitters to barrel up, and he gets in his own ####ing head and walks wins away.

So frustrating. Godammit. This team should be 8 to 10 games above .500 right now.

[bluejays]

What does a manager do during games? Decide the relief pitchers, decide the pinch hitters, decide if a guy should bunt, decide if a guy should steal. That's pretty much it. Because the latter three rarely happen, the manager has to master their decision making skills of when to bring in a reliever. Montoyo has totally failed in the past couple years in something that is part of his core job. It's really really frustrating that he's not scolded behind the scenes about screwing up something relatively simple.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Kasi

I can blame Montoyo for the Chatwood issue but you can’t complain about Stripling without realizing Matz was even better in game 2 and lost it super quick. Which is it did he leave Matz in too long or pull Stripling too fast? I don’t mind pulling pitchers after five today and I really don’t want to have pitchers constantly warming up. What doesn’t make much sense is keeping Chatwood in so long.

Not a single person said he left Matz in too long. That isn't the argument at all.

He took Stripling out unnecessarily early, using 2 relievers instead of probably one, or possibly zero. Then, when he actually NEEDED his pen to preserve the win in the 2nd game, he left Chatwood out there WAY too long, WITHOUT GETTING ANYONE ELSE UP.

If he still had Romano in is back pocket, the Jays leave Cleveland with a sweep.

A 10 year old manages those two situations better.

[Ducay]

I blame Montoyo but also Chatwood. Not just for the stink pitching, but also for being a baby in that one game he got pulled and making a fuss such that Montonyo decided to let him try regroup just to avoid him being a baby about it again.

Thats what, 4 games thrown away in the last 2 weeks that were in the bag?

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by transplant99

https://www.espn.com/mlb/recap?gameId=401331686

Chatwood might needed to get peeled off of the cement from under the bus.

I’m of the opinion that there should always be someone working in the pen during the last two innings. They might not been needed but they need to be ready for the call, if it happens.

The message to Chatwood by not having someone warming up didn’t seem to be one of confidence in him but one of “you’re on an island and you need to get it done.” It’s not a great message to a guy who has been really good most of the year.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Chatwood might needed to get peeled off of the cement from under the bus.

I’m of the opinion that there should always be someone working in the pen during the last two innings. They might not been needed but they need to be ready for the call, if it happens.

The message to Chatwood by not having someone warming up didn’t seem to be one of confidence in him but one of “you’re on an island and you need to get it done.” It’s not a great message to a guy who has been really good most of the year.

I don't think that was really him throwing Chatwood under the bus. It came across to me as: he didn't do his job, but he is a valuable member of this team and we need him to perform.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I don't think that was really him throwing Chatwood under the bus. It came across to me as: he didn't do his job, but he is a valuable member of this team and we need him to perform.

I see how this could be interpreted that way. I think my issue more than anything is when is Montoyo going to take the accountability for failing to do his job? The team needs Montoyo to perform too.

It felt a bit like when a goalie should have been pulled when they aren’t having a good day but the coach kept them in the game to make a point. Chatwood had an off day and showed that he wasn’t sharp in the 6th. Every other coach in the league would have someone started warming up as Chatwood was struggling in the 6th. Chatwood could have been pulled after the first walk or two and but Montoyo’s delay meant nobody was ready when the team really needed it.

[BoLevi]

Montoyo should have been fired weeks ago.

The fact that he wasn't fired before they left Cleveland is on Atkins.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Montoyo should have been fired weeks ago.

The fact that he wasn't fired before they left Cleveland is on Atkins.

And two years ago everyone was calling for the firing of Shapiro and Atkins, and before that it was Gibbons. Key is, we dont know what orders they are under and quite frankly we know less than 1/1000 of the game they do.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Cheese

And two years ago everyone was calling for the firing of Shapiro and Atkins, and before that it was Gibbons. Key is, we dont know what orders they are under and quite frankly we know less than 1/1000 of the game they do.

Montoyo makes terrible tactical decisions. They are obviously terrible in the moment. These aren't long range strategic decisions

[Blaster86]

Guy is brought in to help young guys develop; young guys developing incredibly well. "Guy's a ####ing bum!"


Montoyo will not carry this team across the finish line, I don't think anyone thinks that. But that the race has still only barely started the baton is still in his hands. Let him do his work.

[flamingred89]

I'm starting to be of the opinion that Chucky 'Toyo is a stop gap/fall-guy while they groom John Schneider to be the bench boss of the future.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by flamingred89

I'm starting to be of the opinion that Chucky 'Toyo is a stop gap/fall-guy while they groom John Schneider to be the bench boss of the future.

That writing is on the wall.

[flamingred89]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Guy is brought in to help young guys develop; young guys developing incredibly well. "Guy's a ####ing bum!"

Curious statement and the 2nd time I've seen this notion in the thread. What is 'Toyo doing so well to develop players, and the behind the scenes stuff, that gives him the free pass from obvious blunders managing the actual games?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by flamingred89

Curious statement and the 2nd time I've seen this notion in the thread. What is 'Toyo doing so well to develop players, and the behind the scenes stuff, that gives him the free pass from obvious blunders managing the actual games?

Until you get an in-depth behind the scenes reporter, this will always be speculation, so it's a fool's errand to try and answer it effectively, but you look at evidence of progression in young players. I'll just give one example: Vladimir Guerrero.

Yes, natural talent in spades, but he had a rough last year and wasn't anything special the year before that. I wouldn't doubt at all that Montoyo talked to him about his conditioning and off-season training regimen. Not only that, they worked with him to develop him into a 1st baseman instead of 3rd baseman. It's not easy to switch to first base on a whim, and he's been quite solid if not downright good this year at the position after being moved there at the last minute the previous year.

Then you get into his ridiculous batting stats and it's clear that Montoyo has helped him to reach his full potential. This isn't to say that Charlie is the reason Vladimir is successful because he has so much talent, but you could see that talent go to waste in previous years. I think you have to give the Jays coaching staff credit for getting him back on track and excelling, and that staff is led by Montoyo.

That's not getting into the progression or improvements to others in the organization since he arrived. Hell, even Grichuk looks like a different player now compared to when he came to the team.

Again, I'm of the opinion that they need a better strategist during games, but Montoyo does have value as a coach. He just might be a victim of the Peter Principle in this case.