Escalating Tensions in Palestinian Territories

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I mean... it has gotten to the point where waiving the Israeli flag in public is equivalent to waiving the swastika.

Holy f'n christ people.... the false equivalency in this thread is unbelievable.

I know that the Palestinian activists have scored some amazing PR victories in the last 25 years, but this is straight out of Iranian propaganda manuals...

Maybe people should understand what this conflict is actually about, written by a Palestinian living in Jerusalem:

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/this...4F5aaMcR7W27qM

As I write this, rockets are raining down on Israel from Gaza, and protests are being instigated in cities throughout the country. People have already died as a result of this senseless violence and more will surely follow in the next few days. As a Palestinian living in Jerusalem, I am frustrated and angry — and I can only blame Hamas. The fanatics who rule over Gaza with an iron first cannot resist the opportunity to stir up anti-Jewish violence for their own political gain. If innocent Jews and Muslims die in the process, all the better for them.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Envitro

Holy f'n christ people.... the false equivalency in this thread is unbelievable.

I know that the Palestinian activists have scored some amazing PR victories in the last 25 years, but this is straight out of Iranian propaganda manuals...

Maybe people should understand what this conflict is actually about, written by a Palestinian living in Jerusalem:

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/this...4F5aaMcR7W27qM

Yeah, Israel is in a tough spot and they're not innocent and both party's claim it's their land but one side doesn't want the other to even exist let alone negotiate but yet when Hamas fires thousands of rockets into Israel and they retaliate with over the edge force all the blame goes to the stronger force, I truly feel bad for the Palestinian people but yet they keep Hamas as a political party who are bent on chaos. It's always been a loose-loose situation.

It's is just another in a long line of examples why religion should be eradicated from the face of the earth.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

It's is just another in a long line of examples why religion should be eradicated from the face of the earth.

Don't kid yourself. Religion just happened to be used as the primary excuse. The excuse could have just as easily been land, tribe, resources, culture, blood-feud, politics, etc. They would have found their way to approximately the same place without religion.

[PsYcNeT]

I mean, moderate non-Zionist Judaism exists.

Belief in Divine Right makes any crusade Holy and can excuse numerous atrocities.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Envitro

Context is king... the more you know.

What if the situation were reversed, and the Jewish population were locked into, were told, “Here, you have less than 2 percent of Palestine, so now behave. No more resistance. And let us deal with the rest”? Is there any Jew who would have said this is a reasonable proposition, that we cease our resistance, we cease our effort to establish a Jewish state, at least on one-half of Palestine, which is authorized by the U.N.? Nobody would agree to that. They would say this is absurd. So the expectations that Palestinians—and I’m speaking now about the resistance as a concept; I’m not talking about rockets, whether they were justified or not. They’re not. I think that sending rockets that are going to kill civilians is a crime. But for Palestinians to try, in any way they can, to end this state of affair—and to expect of them to end their struggle and just focus on less than 2 percent to build a country is absurd. That is part of—that’s propaganda, but it’s not a discussion of either politics or morality.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: One of the things that’s repeated most often is, the problem with the Palestinian unity government is, of course, that Hamas is now part of it, and Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by Israel and also by the United States. I’d just like to read you a short quote from an article that you wrote in 2009 in the London Review of Books. You said, “Hamas is no more a 'terror organisation' … than the Zionist movement was during its struggle for a Jewish homeland. In the late 1930s and 1940s, parties within the Zionist movement resorted to terrorist activities for strategic reasons.” Could you elaborate on that and what you see as the parallels between the two?
HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, I’m glad I said that. In fact, I repeated it in a letter to The New York Times the other day, a week or two ago. The fact is that Israel had, pre-state—in its pre-state stage, several terrorist groups that did exactly what Hamas does today. I don’t mean they sent rockets, but they killed innocent people. And they did that in an even more targeted way than these rockets do. Benny Morris published a book that is considered the Bible on that particular period, the war of—
AMY GOODMAN: The Israeli historian.
HENRY SIEGMAN: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: The Israeli historian, Benny Morris.
HENRY SIEGMAN: The Israeli historian, right, then in the book Righteous Victims, in which he said—I recall, when I read it, I was shocked—in which he—particularly in his most recently updated book, which was based on some new information that the Israel’s Defense—the IDF finally had to open up and publish, that Israeli generals received direct instructions from Ben-Gurion during the War of Independence to kill civilians, or line them up against the wall and shoot them, in order to help to encourage the exodus, that in fact resulted, of 700,000 Palestinians, who were driven out of their—left their homes, and their towns and villages were destroyed. This was terror, even within not just the terrorist groups, the pre-state terrorists, but this is within the military, the Israeli military, that fought the War of Independence. And in this recent book, that has received so much public attention by Ari—you know, My Promised Land.
AMY GOODMAN: Shavit.
HENRY SIEGMAN: Ari Shavit. He describes several such incidents, too. And incidentally, one of the people who—according to Benny Morris, one of the people who received these orders—and they were oral orders, but he, in his book, describes why he believes that these orders were given, were given to none other than Rabin, who was not a general then, but he—and that he executed these orders.
AMY GOODMAN: Meaning?
HENRY SIEGMAN: Meaning?
AMY GOODMAN:
What did it mean that he executed these orders, Rabin?
HENRY SIEGMAN: That he executed civilians. And the rationale given for this when Shavit, some years ago, had an interview with Benny Morris and said to him, “My God, you are saying that there was deliberate ethnic cleansing here?” And Morris said, “Yes, there was.” And he says, “And you justify it?” And he said, “Yes, because otherwise there would not have been a state.” And Shavit did not follow up. And that was one of my turning points myself, when I saw that. He would not follow up and say, “Well, if that is a justification, the struggle for statehood, why can’t Palestinians do that?

https://www.democracynow.org/2014/9/..._henry_siegman

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Envitro

I know that the Palestinian activists have scored some amazing PR victories in the last 25 years, but this is straight out of Iranian propaganda manuals...

It's not PR. There are people living in apartheid cantons who have been doing so for sixty years. Your attempt to dehumanize Palestinians is the same as so many other Israeli attempts to ignore or deflect from the mass human suffering of Palestinians.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

It's not PR. There are people living in apartheid cantons who have been doing so for sixty years. Your attempt to dehumanize Palestinians is the same as so many other Israeli attempts to ignore or deflect from the mass human suffering of Palestinians.

Yes, but Envitro knows so much about the situation. More than most, in fact.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

It's not PR. There are people living in apartheid cantons who have been doing so for sixty years. Your attempt to dehumanize Palestinians is the same as so many other Israeli attempts to ignore or deflect from the mass human suffering of Palestinians.

Absolutely not, I have never tried to de-humanize the Palestinian people or minimize their suffering. I outright reject that accusation.

I am just trying to point out the fact that there has been a very steady PR-shift, that originated in University campuses that has progressed into the mainstream through an unrelenting campaign. I don't blame them for it, it just it what it is.

Honestly it's a very good victory for the Palestinian cause... and Israel hasn't helped themselves with some of the land annexations, that in my mind are problematic.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Yes, but Envitro knows so much about the situation. More than most, in fact.

Yeah, thanks for recognizing my expertise

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Envitro

Absolutely not, I have never tried to de-humanize the Palestinian people or minimize their suffering. I outright reject that accusation.

I am just trying to point out the fact that there has been a very steady PR-shift, that originated in University campuses that has progressed into the mainstream through an unrelenting campaign. I don't blame them for it, it just it what it is.

Honestly it's a very good victory for the Palestinian cause... and Israel hasn't helped themselves with some of the land annexations, that in my mind are problematic.

Well, its kind of great that the pendulum is starting to swing in the other direction. A couple of decades ago, Israeli PR used to cover a lot of war crimes. But you know, back then, pointing that out was considered conspiracy theories and antisemitism.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Well, its kind of great that the pendulum is starting to swing in the other direction. A couple of decades ago, Israeli PR used to cover a lot of war crimes. But you know, back then, pointing that out was considered conspiracy theories and antisemitism.

Eh... I think the bolded words there are key ones to examine.
War crimes is such a blanket statement that generally doesn't hold much water when examined closely in this particular context, when used in it's traditional context and definition.

On the anti-semitism/criticism of Israel conflation, I don't disagree with your assertion that the most ardent supporters of Israel have tried to use the anti-semitism bit as a way to discredit their opponents.

However, I would say that anti-semitism runs rampant in the Muslim world (or I'd argue even the greater global community) so it could be that the accusation levels true to some degree. That's not to say that it hasn't been used as a blanket "ad-hominem" type defense.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

70 years ago a bunch of Palestinians were minding their own damn business when bam, the State of Israel shows up out of no where and they are politely told to go away.

They didn’t forget that (hence today’s problems) and they won’t forget this.

Firstly, the Palestinians are under siege right now. I'm not sure the time to forget has started.

Secondly, the Palestinians refugee situation is unique. Prior the state of Israel, the land was part of the Ottoman Empire. There were no hard borders within the Ottoman Empire, and people could move freely between the provinces. Many did. After Israel came into being, the UN passed a resolution stating that anyone who had been in what is now Israel for 2 years, or any of their descendants, was now a Palestinian refugee, and they would remain so in perpetuity.

The surrounding Arab/Muslim nations then striped these people of all land rights and other citizenship. They then continually give them enough weapons to provoke the Israelis but never make any military progress.

So, yes, the Palestinians are in an awful situation, where they are continually pushed into an Israeli war machine.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Envitro

Eh... I think the bolded words there are key ones to examine.
War crimes is such a blanket statement that generally doesn't hold much water when examined closely in this particular context, when used in it's traditional context and definition.

On the anti-semitism/criticism of Israel conflation, I don't disagree with your assertion that the most ardent supporters of Israel have tried to use the anti-semitism bit as a way to discredit their opponents.

However, I would say that anti-semitism runs rampant in the Muslim world (or I'd argue even the greater global community) so it could be that the accusation levels true to some degree. That's not to say that it hasn't been used as a blanket "ad-hominem" type defense.

Staging attacks from civilian populations and using them as human shields is also a war crime, but I digress.

Just make a hard border that's patrolled by third party peace keepers already. The sooner the better, we have people clubbing each other and tossing rocks now in our own country over this mess while not wearing masks with very little social distancing.

Good times.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Just make a hard border that's patrolled by third party peace keepers already.

What is the worst job ever, Alex?

Who the #### would volunteer for that or what nation would send their troops to work that.

I'm sorry this isn't a good option.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

Firstly, the Palestinians are under siege right now. I'm not sure the time to forget has started.

Secondly, the Palestinians refugee situation is unique. Prior the state of Israel, the land was part of the Ottoman Empire. There were no hard borders within the Ottoman Empire, and people could move freely between the provinces. Many did. After Israel came into being, the UN passed a resolution stating that anyone who had been in what is now Israel for 2 years, or any of their descendants, was now a Palestinian refugee, and they would remain so in perpetuity.

The surrounding Arab/Muslim nations then striped these people of all land rights and other citizenship. They then continually give them enough weapons to provoke the Israelis but never make any military progress.

So, yes, the Palestinians are in an awful situation, where they are continually pushed into an Israeli war machine.

I agree with everything you said (apart from skipping over the British rule post-Ottoman Empire, pre-1948 partition plan), and disagree with the statement re: "Israeli War Machine". I think Israel has been in a very dangerous position ever since it's inception, and has come close to being wiped out off the face of the earth by invading armies a few times in its recent history.

To call it a "War Machine" sounds weirdly offensive (from a tactical, not hurt feelings perspective). Israel hasn't waged an offensive war but one time in it's history, and that was meant to be a pre-emptive strike that went badly and turned into an invasion (i.e. first Lebanon war)

[blankall]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

What is the worst job ever, Alex?

Who the #### would volunteer for that or what nation would send their troops to work that.

I'm sorry this isn't a good option.

There's actually already multiple UN forces with that job. The problem is they just aren't very effective. For example, the force in Lebanon is still very active, but how do they actually do their job? Are they supposed to stop Hezbollah from acquiring and deploying rockets? That would require military force into refugee camps and Hezbollah strongholds, which isn't happening. Similarly, that same force isn't going to engage an Israeli warplane flying overhead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...rce_in_Lebanon

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

What is the worst job ever, Alex?

Who the #### would volunteer for that or what nation would send their troops to work that.

I'm sorry this isn't a good option.

I don't think its a good option either, but the way this is going, and the optics, will at some point draw in the international community. Especially with war crimes being commited.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

What is the worst job ever, Alex?

Who the #### would volunteer for that or what nation would send their troops to work that.

I'm sorry this isn't a good option.

Peacekeeping would utterly fail here, and frankly you would end up with an indecisive peace keeping policy, and probably end up with a bunch of dead peace keepers. I mean you would have to look at peace enforcement and suddenly you'd have UN troops going after rocket sites in civilian areas. The UN would never agree to that, it would be a dumb move. And frankly it would be easier to get Israel to sign on to something like that (In theory) if the UN mandate was to remove those rocket sites and perform anti-terror operations against Hamas. But it won't happen, and the risk of casualties is extremely high.



I remember a few years ago reading an article written by a UN observer where Hamas suddenly started setting up rocket sites around his observation area. Because a UN observer killed by a Israeli retaliatory air strike would be PR gold for Hamas.


Also the UN would have to work to choke off funds and munition shipments for example from Iran, and that's not going to happen either. Its a quagmire situation that the UN should not commit troops to unless its iron clad and understood from both sides that strikes will be met with a swift and harsh response and that's not going to happen.



The solution has to be diplomatic, and frankly involve heavy aid and financing into Gaza for example, and a guarantee of security to Israel in exchange for no more settlement evictions from Israel. Its also not going to work as long as Hamas in in power.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by blankall

There's actually already multiple UN forces with that job. The problem is they just aren't very effective. For example, the force in Lebanon is still very active, but how do they actually do their job? Are they supposed to stop Hezbollah from acquiring and deploying rockets? That would require military force into refugee camps and Hezbollah strongholds, which isn't happening. Similarly, that same force isn't going to engage an Israeli warplane flying overhead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...rce_in_Lebanon

So we are agreed it doesn't and won't work.

Listen the only way a peacekeeping mission works is if both hostiles want the violence to stop.

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

I don't think its a good option either, but the way this is going, and the optics, will at some point draw in the international community. Especially with war crimes being commited.

What you are actually talking about is peacemaking and I can tell you that is a cluster ####.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Staging attacks from civilian populations and using them as human shields is also a war crime, but I digress.

Just make a hard border that's patrolled by third party peace keepers already. The sooner the better, we have people clubbing each other and tossing rocks now in our own country over this mess while not wearing masks with very little social distancing.

Good times.

Maybe they should go to the mountains of Gaza to fight? You know in the open air prison that israel caged them into. But I digress..



Al-Shati encompasses about 30 city blocks and houses at least 87,000 people.




Is the IOF stopping the rockets or reducing their frequency? So what are they achieving besides all the carnage and murder of toddlers?