Brad Treliving needs to go

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I agree with you 100% I think he did look hard to trade them but didn’t find a deal he liked but I suspect those offers are not on the table anymore or the returns are even worse. Basically I think Treliving tried to move one or either player and when he didn’t like the returns he opted to go back to the same group again hoping an improved goalie and a new season would result in big bounce back years. Unfortunately that didn’t happen and not moving one or both of those players looks pretty bad on Treliving now especially since so many fans/media thought they would move on from at least one of them after losing in the bubble.

And honestly given how badly 2019-20 went I think a bounce back to the mid range would have made a lot of sense.

Sean Monahan
(5 on 5)

14-15 1.61 pts/60
15-16 1.95
16-17 1.9
17-18 2.32
18-19 2.58
19-20 1.53

Looking at the progression and consistency, the 1.53 19-20 season looked like more an outlier than the 2.58. That was a max possibly for sure but he was averaging over 2.00 in four straight seasons.

Solid bounce back estimation.

Sean Monahan
(PP)

14-15 4.7 pts/60
15-16 4.6
16-17 4.1
17-18 4.3
18-19 5.3
19-20 4.8

Once again consistency, and the 18-19 season was a max, but his history and average wouldn't point to the 3.3 he's put up this season on the PP.

Johnny Gaudreau
(5 on 5)

14-15 1.72 pts/60
15-16 2.25
16-17 2.23
17-18 2.61
18-19 2.84
19-20 1.76

Just like Monahan a steady progression and then hit a wall in 19-20. Would sure seam likely that while he may not touch 2.84 again, he was a good bet for 2.25-2.50. This year 1.54

Johnny Gaudreau
(PP)

14-15 5.61 pts/60
15-16 4.43
16-17 4.17
17-18 5.08
18-19 5.9
19-20 5.34

No change for Gaudreau on the PP as he's still a 5.94 player. Just the five on five that has gone away completely.

So as I say ... not sure this is something many would have predicted.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Often? Let’s go with that

If it was last year as was suggested, there wouldn’t have been a NTC consideration, so are you suggesting some Buffalo player’s agent

Not a lot of NTCs over there. Which garbage player / contract was it for?

Okposo or Skinner?

This isn’t a good look on Tre no matter how this rumour came out.

Shouldn’t have been from his side, and if it was from the other side, the only agents needing awareness are those with hideous contracts

Wizardry at work

There are rumors about several NHL teams almost every day.
Do you think those are bad looks for those GMs too?
How is it decided when it's a bad look and when it isn't?
Again there are daily rumors.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

This is a bit disingenuous for sure. I don't think the team is in a worse position than when he took over, the problem is the team is not in much better of a position and it feels like the 7 years were wasted

Looking at key pieces from the 14-15 team to now on the roster from when Brad took over.

Key Forwards: Glencross (31), Hudler (30), Backlund (25) Ferland (22), Baertschi (21), Gaudreau (21), Monahan (19),

Key Defense: Wideman (31), Giordano (30), Brodie (24)

Goalies: Hiller (32), Ramo (28)

1st Round Prospects: Bennett, Poirier, Klimchuk, Jankowski

And compare that to now:

Key Forwards: Lucic (32), Backlund (32), Gaudreau (27), Lindholm (26), Monahan (26), Mangiapane (25), Tkachuk (23), Dube (22),

Key Defense: Giordano (36), Tanev (31), Hanifin (24), Andersson (24), Valimaki (22)

Goalies: Markstrom (31)

1st Round Prospects: Zary, Pelletier,

Overall it's actually pretty close. Issue is we all hoped we'd be further along at this point.

Real problem this year has been a couple of players taking huge steps back (Tkachuk, Monahan, Gaudreau, Gio, specifically), and some players not taking the next step we hoped they would (Valimaki, Dube, Andersson). Really the team needs to be making tough decisions on Monahan, Gaudreau, Gio, and Backlund this offseason. Need to move them for younger pieces / pieces that are longer term. Then retool around Tkachuk, Lindholm, Mangiapane, Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki, Markstrom.

"We all hoped we'd be further along" is kind of brushing aside the actual issue.

I would say that the absolute bare minimum any moderately competent GM should be able to do is make the team better by spending more money, which is the big difference between the first and second team listed here. The second one is a cap team, the first one is not.

Treliving has failed to do what I would consider the absolute bare minimum.

Years have been wasted with nothing to show for it. The team has achieved nothing, it's not improved and like always we have a very poor prospect pool.

I do think this team is perfectly salvageable, with the right GM. But I don't see any proof that Treliving has what it takes.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Itse

"We all hoped we'd be further along" is kind of brushing aside the actual issue.

I would say that the absolute bare minimum any moderately competent GM should be able to do is make the team better by spending more money, which is the big difference between the first and second team listed here. The second one is a cap team, the first one is not.

Treliving has failed to do what I would consider the absolute bare minimum.

Years have been wasted with nothing to show for it. The team has achieved nothing, it's not improved and like always we have a very poor prospect pool.

I do think this team is perfectly salvageable, with the right GM. But I don't see any proof that Treliving has what it takes.

Was the team better in 2018-19 compared to 2013-14? We’re those not years of improvement? The decline has been solely in the last 2 years, for whatever reason.

[Strange Brew]

The discussion about the building of the team is much broader than whether he should have traded 13 or 23.

Many many posters and fans have questioned whether Monahan was a true 1C or if Gaudreau was good enough to be the best player on a contender. Those aren't new questions.

The step backwards for those two was a big surprise but to me changes nothing of howI view the results of the GM's efforts.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The discussion about the building of the team is much broader than whether he should have traded 13 or 23.

Many many posters and fans have questioned whether Monahan was a true 1C or if Gaudreau was good enough to be the best player on a contender. Those aren't new questions.

The step backwards for those two was a big surprise but to me changes nothing of howI view the results of the GM's efforts.

For sure.

I've been pretty consistent in summarizing what I think, and certainly not telling any one how they should think.

I just don't think it very reasonable to suggest any of us saw the Gaudreau/Monahan collapse coming, which is the largest issue with the roster in my opinion.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The discussion about the building of the team is much broader than whether he should have traded 13 or 23.

Many many posters and fans have questioned whether Monahan was a true 1C or if Gaudreau was good enough to be the best player on a contender. Those aren't new questions.

The step backwards for those two was a big surprise but to me changes nothing of howI view the results of the GM's efforts.

These were (obviously in hindsight) reasonable takes. But they still beg the question - what should Treliving have done about it? Trading them doesn’t make the team immediately better. Adding to them is difficult. So blow it up after the Avs series? Pretty ballsy.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

There are rumors about several NHL teams almost every day.
Do you think those are bad looks for those GMs too?
How is it decided when it's a bad look and when it isn't?
Again there are daily rumors.

Can't say I follow the rumors of other teams all that closely. Who on say any of the Canadian team's rosters have been rumored to have been offered to other teams?

IMO it seems that we have heard ALOT about failed deals on the Flames side, which makes me think they are "leakier" than most. Or maybe other clubs are more adept at closing deals so players aren't left hanging around afterwards.

Not that any of that is much of an excuse for a pro not playing to their ability.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Itse

"We all hoped we'd be further along" is kind of brushing aside the actual issue.

I would say that the absolute bare minimum any moderately competent GM should be able to do is make the team better by spending more money, which is the big difference between the first and second team listed here. The second one is a cap team, the first one is not.

Treliving has failed to do what I would consider the absolute bare minimum.

Years have been wasted with nothing to show for it. The team has achieved nothing, it's not improved and like always we have a very poor prospect pool.

I do think this team is perfectly salvageable, with the right GM. But I don't see any proof that Treliving has what it takes.

You talk like the team has missed the playoffs every year and this year is typical under Treliving. The team did have a 107pt season which was their best in 30 years.

This team is far more asset rich and in better position than when Treliving took over. The post claiming he started with the “next Toews and Kane” well they are both still here and neither is close to what the Hawks players were then or even where Kane still is today.

If you give a GM what Treliving started with or what he has today and tell that GM they have to win right away or they can build it up from scratch any GM takes the current Flames team.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Yes I agree the last big trwde he made was 3 years ago which is almost half of his entire tenure. He definitely is a guy that likes to talk deal but hasn’t been able to close many relative to the rumors.

It all started in 2014 the Flames were getting the Carolina 7th overall pick for taking back Cam Ward’s deal. Or the Flames were getting the Coyotes 12th overall pick but Mike Ribero won’t waive his NMC to come here

2015 he pulls off the big Hamilton deal to cap off a hugely successful year 1

2016 rumors all day on the draft that the Flames are either acquiring Ben Bishop and signing him to a 7x7 deal and/or the Flames will be moving into the top 3 of the draft. The night ends up okay as Tkachuk slipped to the Flames at 6 but Brian Elliott was hardly as exciting as Bishop would have been

2017- he makes the Smith and Hamonic deals to keep the wheeling and dealing personna alive but makes a horrible trade with the Islanders

2018- makes the Hurricanes blockbuster and signs plenty of free agents in Ryan, Czarnik, and Neal to multi year deals.

2019-21 he does very little with the team. Swaps Neal for Lucic, makes the big big goalie signing this past offseason and swaps Brodie/Hamonic for Tanev. Lots of potential deals fall through for Stone, Zucker, Kadri and the flames were not able to make the Dubois trade.

He held onto the core for too long hoping they bounce back but now he has to make changes and the assets are worth less than they were last year or the year before. Worries me to think he may have little choice but to tinker and maybe make one really big move (Gaudreau) that underwhelms the fans and they come back next year fully committed to Sutter hockey which will have the Flames playing mostly 2-1 games for the next 2 years until they rear the whole thing down

I think this is getting blown out of proportion. I listened to the morning show as well and certainly it isn't a new topic of discussion but this idea that the Flames assets are distressed or we can now only 'sell low' is pure speculation. Fans, media, we have no idea what the value of these players are.

The truth of it is, the only people who know the value of Gaudreau, or Monahan, or Tkachuk, or Hanifin, or whom ever, is Treliving, his colleagues and other GM's. About 9 days ago it seemed like the popular opinion around here was that the Flames would do well to get a third for Sam Bennett. I would bet there is more than one team out there who think if they add JG they can get him back to his 90 point form.

I will also add, how many players are traded at their perceived peak? Not many. I would say none of the following were; Liane, PLD, Kadri, Bennett, Duschene, ROR, Pacioretty, Anderson. There have been plenty of players traded who are at a 'low' and returned good value. It is awfully easy right now to catastorphize the situation the Flames are in. I tend to think Treliving's approach has been measured and this summer we will see some significant change to the roster.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

These were (obviously in hindsight) reasonable takes. But they still beg the question - what should Treliving have done about it? Trading them doesn’t make the team immediately better. Adding to them is difficult. So blow it up after the Avs series? Pretty ballsy.

Blow it up?

How about making a change or two? To me the period of inactivity that resulted in the decay of the current club began at the trade deadline in 2020.

Some of the moves that weakened the asset base and created cap problems started before then.

It's just everything.

The UFA signings haven't helped.
The goalie and coach carousel.
Poor use of draft picks.
Lack of impact of new talent coming from within the organization.
Poor cap management.

I acknowledge I'm highlighting the negative here but even if things had broken a little differently with regards to player performance, I feel we'd still only be treading water.

IMO the best argument in favor of keeping BT is the fear they might hire another Jay Feaster.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Was the team better in 2018-19 compared to 2013-14? We’re those not years of improvement? The decline has been solely in the last 2 years, for whatever reason.

I'm just going to leave this here:

2010 90 points
2011 94 points
2012 90 points
2013 42 points (equivalent of 72 in an 82 game season)
2014 77 points
2015 97 points

2016 77 points
2017 94 points
2018 84 points
2019 107 points
2020 on pace for 92 points
2021 on pace for 51 points (equivalent of 74 points in an 82 game season)


2019 was an anomaly, just like 2015.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Blow it up?

How about making a change or two? To me the period of inactivity that resulted in the decay of the current club began at the trade deadline in 2020.

Some of the moves that weakened the asset base and created cap problems started before then.

It's just everything.

The UFA signings haven't helped.
The goalie and coach carousel.
Poor use of draft picks.
Lack of impact of new talent coming from within the organization.
Poor cap management.

I acknowledge I'm highlighting the negative here but even if things had broken a little differently with regards to player performance, I feel we'd still only be treading water.

IMO the best argument in favor of keeping BT is the fear they might hire another Jay Feaster.

The 2020 TDL? I can’t see any possible move at that time that moves the needle, based on the team needs. Goalie and coach carousel? Sure. But I think the players have proven that coaching wasn’t really the underlying issue. Sutter will, in time, coax a few more points out. He’ll make the POs. But the exits will continue with this core.

Poor use of picks - that’s a complaint but it doesn’t change the present fortunes of the Flames. No pick that was traded except around the Hamilton acquisition (which was good) has had time to make any impact on an NHL team. You can, I guess, second guess that one into a Barzal draft. But now you don’t have Hanifin or Lindholm. You may wish to have the 2018 pick back, but that player is not impacting the Flames yet.

Neal was a mistake that impacted the team. Another $6M player could help. Enough? I kinda doubt it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'm just going to leave this here:

2010 90 points
2011 94 points
2012 90 points
2013 42 points (equivalent of 72 in an 82 game season)
2014 77 points
2015 97 points

2016 77 points
2017 94 points
2018 84 points
2019 107 points
2020 on pace for 92 points
2021 on pace for 51 points (equivalent of 74 points in an 82 game season)


2019 was an anomaly, just like 2015.

So every year was an improvement over 2013. The real aberration was 2015.

This team isn’t as good as its 2019 record. But it’s better than it was in 2013. The question is - why isn’t it good enough, what could have been done differently to change that, and when? And it’s, IMO, a combination of bad luck, two bad trades, and simply not enough out of the starting material.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The 2020 TDL? I can’t see any possible move at that time that moves the needle, based on the team needs. Goalie and coach carousel? Sure. But I think the players have proven that coaching wasn’t really the underlying issue. Sutter will, in time, coax a few more points out. He’ll make the POs. But the exits will continue with this core.

Poor use of picks - that’s a complaint but it doesn’t change the present fortunes of the Flames. No pick that was traded except around the Hamilton acquisition (which was good) has had time to make any impact on an NHL team. You can, I guess, second guess that one into a Barzal draft. But now you don’t have Hanifin or Lindholm. You may wish to have the 2018 pick back, but that player is not impacting the Flames yet.

Neal was a mistake that impacted the team. Another $6M player could help. Enough? I kinda doubt it.

I would argue Noah Dobson (12th overall, Hamonic trade) is already an impact player in the NHL. He seems to be pretty effective, moreso than Hamonic.
A 6'4 RH defenseman who had 36 points in 28 games for Rouyn-Noranda Huskies.
Once he gets PP time he could really look like a steal.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I would argue Noah Dobson (12th overall, Hamonic trade) is already an impact player in the NHL. He seems to be pretty effective, moreso than Hamonic.
A 6'4 RH defenseman who had 36 points in 28 games for Rouyn-Noranda Huskies.
Once he gets PP time he could really look like a steal.

He will likely be good, and it was a bad trade. But Noah Dobson wouldn’t have given the Flames a better record this year. That’s my only point. There are complaints about Treliving which, while valid, are irrelevant to the team not making the POs this year.

ETA, and unless it’s Dobson or Farrabbee the Flames chose, it’s worse than that.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So every year was an improvement over 2013. The real aberration was 2015.

Seriously?

2013 is a competitor for the absolute worst Flames season ever. The Flames have had less points per game only once (1998) in franchise history, and that was in the days before loser points. Their goal differential was a quite impressive -32 (again, in just 48 games).

So yes, technically speaking every season after that is better, but so is pretty much every season before that.h every season before that.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Itse

Seriously?

2013 is a competitor for the absolute worst Flames season ever. The Flames have had less points per game only once (1998) in franchise history, and that was in the days before loser points. Their goal differential was a quite impressive -32 (again, in just 48 games).

So yes, technically speaking every season after that is better, but so is pretty much every season before that.

Well, you set the parameters, not me.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Can't say I follow the rumors of other teams all that closely. Who on say any of the Canadian team's rosters have been rumored to have been offered to other teams?

IMO it seems that we have heard ALOT about failed deals on the Flames side, which makes me think they are "leakier" than most. Or maybe other clubs are more adept at closing deals so players aren't left hanging around afterwards.

Not that any of that is much of an excuse for a pro not playing to their ability.

I think the final point is the biggest. Ultimately getting traded is part of being a pro. It seems to be a point of criticism for this GM that he's leaky. I don't know if he is or not. Obviously we all follow the Flames closely so perhaps we hear more because we are looking for it.

But here is TSN's trade board. These are guys they stated heading to the TDL would be likely to move:

https://www.tsn.ca/tsn-hockey-s-trad...-list-1.203546

We know there were rumors that Oleksiak was reportedly going to Edmonton then it didn't happen. Is that a bad look for the Dallas GM? Or Edmonton GM?

There's a bunch that didn't move. Some re-signed. Some just didn't get traded.

I think it's a nothing thing. A red herring. And a case where posters are looking for any point of criticism where they can find it.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, you set the parameters, not me.

I'm not setting any parameters here. All I'm saying is, if you look at the bigger picture, 2019 clearly stands out as an anomaly, and the team isn't significantly better after "the rebuild" than it was before or during.

In 2010-15 the team collected an average of 87 points per season.

In 2016-21, assuming the team keeps this pace until the end, the Flames are collecting an average of 88 points per season.

Some rebuild.